Cream of the Crop 1/Cream of the Crop 1.iso/RELIGION/OB_92.ARJ/03-15-92

Text File | 1992-03-22 | 230KB | 5,149 lines

Date       03-08-92 01:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Why 1/2

 GT> TB: What if God is not indifferent.  He could be suffering to
 GT> TB: a great deal and we wouldn't even know.
 GT>
 GT> What would be the cause of such suffering. In your own
 GT> analogy, if you create something and it doesn't turn out the
 GT> way you planned, you don't suffor. You correct the mistakes
 GT> and go on.

 Maybe this is true for boy scout camp when we were making those silly
 ashtrays but if I make a mistake ...or for any other reason one of my
 children ends up in prison, or, God forbid, a politician... then that
 would be a real sorrowful situation.  How does one correct a mistake
 made by their children?  Can you just disown then and make some more?

 GT> Why does God have to inter╗ene? Couldn't he have
 GT> created the Universe and is now just observing the results of
 GT> his creation.

 The answer is to be found in understanding the parent child
 relationship.  God's children have a terrible disease.  Can any parent
 not try desperately to find a cure for their suffering child?   When
 children suffer the parents suffer even more.

 GT> TB: Do you believe that things happen purely by chance and
 GT> TB: accident?  Do you recognize the cause <=> effect
 GT> TB: principle?
 GT>
 GT> Do you really believe that cause <=> effect negates chance?

 Yes.   There is nothing really random.  I know there are situations in
 which the results do not follow simple logic.   If you placed 1 million
 straws on a camel's back, after the first 100 thousand, his back may
 sway so much,  the next 100 thousand may cause it to sway the same
 amount as the first ...and so on.  But maybe after you placed 1 million
 and 1, his back may break and the predicted measure of sway that
 resulted with each previous increment would be far from what you
 expected.   But the results can be understood if you know a different
 law.  Likewise, I believe that all things that appear to be a random
 result can be understood if we can find the higher law.

 GT> TB: Can we really have a world that was created without a
 GT> TB: purpose?
 GT>
 GT> Yes.

 Think some more.  Go to a junk yard or any where you may find a variety
 of things that were created by a human and find something that is there
 which was created without a purpose in mind.   Every physical thing once
 existed as an idea. All ideas have some purpose.  Ultimately the purpose
 of any idea is to give its creator happiness.  You had an idea for
 reading this message.  I'm sure you did not read this far in hopes you
 would find something depressing ...even though that may be the results.

 GT> TB: For what purpose do you create?  Do you hope to receive
 GT> TB: some stimulation, joy, or happiness from your effort?
 GT>
 GT> Again you are anthropomorphizing God.

 Could be.  But if we give human attributes to God we still have to ask
 where God got them from to give to us.

 GT> TB: Why are you like that?  Why is everyone seeking
 GT> TB: happiness?  Where did we get such a nature that inspires
 GT> TB: us seek happiness?  Did you give this nature to yourself?
 GT>
 GT> It could be the product of evolutionary processes. We really
 GT> don't know enough of what "happiness" is to define an origin.

 So one day something decided it wanted to be happy?  Maybe God decided
 He wanted to be happy.  In order to be happy He NEEDED an object to
 share His love, life and ideals.  That's where you came in.

 Can God evolve?   Was God once a "baby" god?

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Date       03-08-92 01:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Why 2/2

 GT> TB: I'm not the daddy of a lizard.  Even if I was, I don't
 GT> TB: desire worship. God most likely doesn't want worship
 GT> TB: either.
 GT>
 GT> My contention exactly. What makes you think that God is our
 GT> daddy?

 He talks to me.

 GT> TB: God wants to be happy.
 GT>
 GT> Why.

 He is tired of suffering.  That tends to make one sad.

 GT> TB: So God has to establish a give and take relationship with
 GT> TB: His children. But can you be friends with a very selfish
 GT> TB: person?  The main attribute of love is self-sacrificing --
 GT> TB: unselfishness.
 GT>
 GT> TB: So we have a situation where we have a creator that is
 GT> TB: selfless with children who are selfish.  In order to
 GT> TB: create unity and harmony in that situation, someone must
 GT> TB: change their priorities.  Who do you think should change?
 GT>
 GT> Again you are making conclusions based on unsupported
 GT> assumptions.
 GT> 1.  That we are direct children of God.
 GT> 2.  That God loves us as individuals.

 True, but we have to start somewhere.  Can we start with the assumption
 that we are not God's children and God doesn't love us?  Do you have
 support for that assumption?  According to my teaching that is exactly
 the same thing Lucifer felt when he decided to try to run the show. He
 compared the love God was giving to His children with the love he felt
 he was receiving.   Since he was in a servant's position, he could
 easily see that the love between a parent and a child was greater than
 the love between a master and a servant.

 Anyway this is getting off the topic.  Maybe we could take a pole and
 find out what other people think about this most basic question.

 Are we are direct children of God. (Is man created in the image of God?)
 Does God loves us as individuals.

 If anyone sees this message and wants to answer they should explain why
 they answered the way they did.

 I doubt we will hear from the Jw's, they seem to be only interested in
 the trinity these days.

 GT> GT> fig what a lizard thinks, if he thinks at all. In other
 GT> GT> words we would have to be a lot closer to God then we are
 GT> GT> for him to care what we think. I don't think man has
 GT> GT> evolved that far yet.
 GT>
 GT> TB: When your children were born could they talk to you?
 GT> TB: Could they share your love, life, and your ideals?  Did
 GT> TB: this hinder your ability to love them?   Even before your
 GT> TB: children "evolved" you loved them. Right?
 GT>
 GT> See my note about assumptions above.
 GT> You make the additional conclusion that when we "grow up" we
 GT> will be close enough to God for him to care about us and our
 GT> concerns about him.

 No,  that was not my conclusion.  I said the age of your child does not
 determine/hinder YOUR ability to love him.  Even before your child
 evolves into a man or woman, you love them.   As they mature, however,
 their ability to love you will evolve.  The problem with the world is
 that MAN's sensitivity to God has not matured/developed.  That is the
 reason the institution of religion came into being ...to assist man in
 regaining sensitivity to, and awareness of God.

 GT> Man is not even close to creating a
 GT> planet, much less a universe.

 Suppose a powerful, wealthy and handsome man marries a poor and homely
 woman.  Will everything he has belong to her also?  Will his servants
 tell her she can't enter the house without her husband?

 GT> The Lizard is closer to man
 GT> then man is to God. To consider ourselves as children of God
 GT> is a gross conceit.

 It is true that fallen man is far from God, but we are destined to
 become the true sons and daughters of God.  What is truly conceited is
 the concept that God can take us the way we are.  I have heard so many
 christians say that because Jesus was murdered by a group of faithless
 people that blinded God so He can no longer see their individual sins.
 What a joke !   Jesus' crucifixion has never made even one believer
 perfect.  If it could then two of them should have married and raise a
 bunch of messiah's.

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Date       03-08-92 09:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH> The problem I see here is with faith.  Faith is simply believing
 BH> where you cannot prove.

 But that is the same way science and technology progresses.  Sometimes
 someone comes up with an idea like the earth is round.  At that point it
 is only faith.  Then suppose that person actually sailed around the
 world and returned to the original point and started telling everyone
 that they went around the world.  Even thought they "proved" it to
 themselves, the people who did not make the trip will still have doubt.

 There are spiritual truths that are as real as the forces of gravity,
 but that does not mean they have been discovered.  The discovery process
 lends itself to a theory first, then followed by investigation some
 people find a way to validate it for themselves.  Some things are easier
 to prove than others.  But even then you have to be careful.  Many an
 investor has been soaked for all their funds by an "inventor"  who
 claimed to have found a perpetual motion device.  Such "proof" in those
 situations turned out to be deceiving.

 We all would like to see the scientific method of validating applied to
 spiritual questions.  After all if there is no God and no afterlife, we
 may as well "party hardy."     Eat, drink and make love, for tomorrow we
 all will die.   Unfortunately we can't even prove to people that it is a
 good idea to be good to each other.  The jails are full of people who
 have a different "faith" from us.   Can you prove to them it is not
 good to commit crime?   I think you have faith that you can't prove
 either?

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Date       03-08-92 10:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH>  They do not even stop for a second and consider maybe
 BH> the Bible is wrong.

 Ohhhhhh,  but they stop for days to tell each other (and you and me)
 that our interpretation is wrong.   Just take a simple verse and tell me
 if it should be taken literal

 JOH 15:5    I am the vine, ye [are] the branches:

 JOH 10:26   But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I
 said unto you.

 Are we literal sheep?   That was too easy.   But you know that ideas
 such as the nature of the trinity or the events that will occur at the
 last days are wide open to different view points.

 The scripture says the sun shall be darkened.  If this happens literally
 then the earth will become an ice cube and life will come to an end.

 So we have to investigate farther and find out what is the possible
 symbology of the sun becoming dark.  Since the Bible frequently speaks
 of light as truth, we may conclude that a brighter truth may appear, and
 the previous light will appear dim ... much like a candle may appear
 dimmer when the florescent lights are switched on.

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Date       03-08-92 10:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH> After all, the entire reason for religion is to find the
 BH> right one, if there is only one right one, and follow it.

 Well, kinda.   The reason for religion is reconnect fallen man to God.
 In my opinion, truth is like a pie and many people have slices.  It does
 not mean that they are wrong, but they simply don't always see the
 bigger picture.  Even if you and I saw the biggest picture, say we
 realized it was not good for people to starve to death and we wanted to
 eliminate hunger,  do we have the necessary "truth" to grow and
 distribute enough food to solve the problem.  The only solution to the
 problems of man and God is for good men and women to work together.  The
 obstacle for that is there is not central nervous system to coordinate
 our actions.  When a human enters an athletic competition with the
 purpose of running faster or jumping higher than anyone else, they must
 have total mind body unity.  Society will have to develop such unity
 centered on common purpose if we are ever to realize an ideal world.

 BH> For all we know, Christianity may
 BH> be one huge false cult and Buddhism or Taoism or something else
 BH> may be the one true way.

 You are correct. Rather than trying to perfect one's religion, we should
 try to perfect ourselves.  Everyone wants to marry an ideal spouse, but
 the trouble is that not too many people want to become an ideal spouse.

 BH> Looking at all the patently false claims in the Bible
 BH> tends to lead one who thinks rationally
 BH> and critically in that direction.

 It is good to be critical, BUT just be careful we don't throw out the
 baby with the bath water.

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Date       03-08-92 10:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH> Until recently, yes.  Now, however, no.  Which new revelation
 BH> from God do we have?  I haven't seen anyone claim to be inspired
 BH> and write some more books for the Bible.

 Well come out of hiding and discover the Divine Principle.  My minister,
 Rev. Moon, has claimed exactly that.  He has discovered and revealed the
 "Completed Testament."

 That makes most fundamental Christians really mad.  However fundamental
 Jews didn't like it when Jesus revealed the New Testament either.  It
 was predicted this would happen.

 LUK 18:8    I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless
 when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

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Date       03-08-92 14:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Fundamentalist

 JS> TB># So what kind of fruit did Brian have?  Are you really a
 JS> qualified TB># "fruit" inspector?

 JS> Are you saying, then, that Jesus lied in Matt. 7:16f?  If He
 JS> didn't lie, the Walter, and you and I, are all qualified "fruit
 JS> inspectors".

 The "fruit inspectors" hung the Son of God on the cross 2,000 years ago.
 The only man who never sinned was killed by people who thought they were
 qualified to judge him.  They will try again:

 JOH 16:2    They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
 cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

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Date       03-08-92 14:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Jesus' knowledge

 JS> "Traditional" Christians aren't bothered by that passage, or any
 other passage in the Bible.  It's in the Bible, and it's true, and it's
 perfectly compatible with Trinitarian beliefs. It is only when
 non-Trinitarians who have mistaken beliefs about the Trinity try to
 reconcile that passage with their own mistaken beliefs that it causes
 trouble.  But for someone who _really_ understands the Trinity (like
 myself, for instance), that passage poses no problems.

 So you are disqualifying those who don't hold your views on the trinity.
 Those who claim to be traditional christians are mistakened about their
 true identity?   That's nice.  Just say someone isn't a fundamental
 christian when they disagree.

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Date       03-08-92 14:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Jesus' knowledge

 JS> Once again, I would like to point out that just because a fallible
 and limited _man_, such as yourself, isn't able to grasp the idea of the
 Trinity, doesn't make it a false doctrine.  It comes directly from
 Scripture, and is therefore God's truth to mankind. They listen but they
 do not hear, they look but they do not see...

 Scripture contains so many virses that disagree with your teaching it
 makes it simply impossible to accept.... even for a limited man such as
 myself.

 Even if you were correct in your assumption that Jesus was God, at
 best you could only be half right beause God's image is BOTH male and
 female:

 GEN 1:27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God
             created he him; male and female created he them.

 MAR 13:32    But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not
              the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
              Father.

 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
             [him] in spirit and in truth.

 JOH 8:54    Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
             it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he
             is your God:

 1TI 2:5     For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and
             men, the man Christ Jesus;

 COL 3:1     If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which
             are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
             say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what
             he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
             these also doeth the Son likewise.

 1JO 4:14    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the
             Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

 2JO 1:9     Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
             of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine
             of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 2CO 4:4     In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of
             them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious
             gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine
             unto them.

 ACS 22:9    And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
             afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to
             me.

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Date       03-08-92 14:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Marriage of the Lamb

 TB> Has the work of the devil been destroyed?   Why must Christ
 TB>return?

 WC>    He will come back to bring Israel into the fold.

 It appears your answer is "no" the work of Christ is NOT finished.

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Date       03-08-92 14:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiah

 WC> TB>God did send Rev. Moon.
 WC>    Were that the case then the doctrines of the Rev. Moon would
 WC> not be contradicted by Scripture. However, they are so
 WC> contradicted. Very little of what he teaches is Scriptural. God
 WC> does not contradict Himself.

 JOH 8:45    And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

 JOH 8:46    Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth,
             why do ye not believe me?

 JOH 16:9    Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 WC>    There has been no evidence presented that one should. Rather
 WC> there has been a preponderance of evidence indicating that what
 WC> he teaches is extra-biblical and is in fact contradicted by
 WC> Scripture. Neither has he preformed any miracles such as
 WC> changing water to wine, walking on water, raising the dead to
 WC> life as Jesus did Lazarus. What works and miracles has he done
 WC> to authenticate his authority?

 People were never saved by miracles.  If you are just hanging around
 religion to see the "magic" show then you will only go home after if is
 over.  God can get all the spectators He wants.  BUT He is looking for
 people who will change their lives and live for the salvation of all
 mankind.

 Are you looking for a way to serve Christ, or are you waiting on Jesus
 to come back and do something for you?

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Date       03-08-92 14:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiahs

 WC> TB>Why would such a warning be necessary if the return of Christ
 WC> was TB>really expected to come out of the clouds?
 WC>    It was necessary because God knew that there would be many
 WC> who would come claiming to be messiah. Thus God gave us a fool
 WC> proof test for Messiah and His return. Anyone that does not pass
 WC> the Scripture test is a false messiah.

 You think someone arriving in the literal clouds would need a
 "Scriptural test?"     I can just see you flipping pages as you observed
 such an event.  When your feet started to lift off the ground you would
 still be searching for the right verse to "verify" that you should go.

 Your religion places all responsibility on God.  That is most
 extra-biblical.

 REV 22:14   Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may
 have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into
 the city.

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Date       03-08-92 14:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Sibio
Subject    Moon

 GS> Your comments here raise several questions:

 Good.  It makes me happy to see someone thinking.

 GS> A) The reasons given all seem to be very subjective.

 How does one decide to follow christianity or any other religion?  It
 is always subjective isn't it?

 GS> To decide
 GS> on this basis a matter as important as whether or not Moon is
 GS> God's man for today on the basis of his writings and speeches
 GS> seems rather rash when you consider the consequences of being
 GS> wrong.

 The consequences of being wrong can work both ways, don't you think?  If
 Rev. Moon is a man of God then failing to support him also carries
 "consequences."

 GS> Without drawing any other parallels between the two,
 GS> Hitler was also a very powerful speaker who swayed many with his
 GS> speeches. There are also many other authors/orators who have led
 GS> people astray with their gifts in the area of communications.
 GS> Can you offer evidence which is more objective than this?

 No, You have the responsibility to carefully listen, pray and find the
 direction that you should take.  If there was a litmus test it would be
 found in the way Rev. Moon has lived his life. He has been misunderstood
 and mistreated all his life and he NEVER once fought back against his
 enemies, those people who were attacking him.  He has had every right to
 respond with hatred and resentment, however he is the only person I have
 know that truly followed Jesus' example of forgiving his enemies.

 GS> B) Back when I first heard of Moon and the Unification Church
 GS> there were charges made that he required the bride from the
 GS> marriages he performed to engage in sexual activity with him on
 GS> the honeymoon night. I have no evidence either way on this
 GS> charge and I am not accusing Moon of anything but I did hear of
 GS> the charge. Have you heard of this charge and, if so, how was it
 GS> answered to your satis- faction?

 If you are hinting that Rev. Moon has had sex with my wife then I can
 assure you he has not.  To this date, Rev. Moon has blessed 24,000
 couples in marriage. I can assure you he did not have sex with any of
 them.  Did you ever read that the people who were drinking and
 fornication were the SAME ones who accused Jesus of immoral conduct?

 GS> C) Back in the mid-70s I had a copy of the _Divine Principle_. I
 GS> never read the entire thing but noticed that in the first few
 GS> pages of it there were many references to a "new revelation".
 GS> Lot's of people have claimed similar new revelations and, to the
 GS> best of my knowledge, they have all turned out wrong. What
 GS> objective evidence can you provide to prove to me that this "new
 GS> revelation" really is from God and not just another sham?

 Once again you have search within your own soul.  I can only tell you
 that I am sure the teaching of Rev. Moon came from God.  I came to this
 conclusion through very thoughtful evaluation.

 One thing I would suggest is that you try to read the entire Divine
 Principle and step back and look for the big picture.  I have been
 explaining it to a user on this conference, Walter Copes, for over a
 year and he has never been able to restrain from focusing on the pieces.
 If he ever saw a stained glass window he would never be able to figure
 out the picture it created as long as he followed his typical format for
 evaluation of every single portion individually.

 GS> Please do not view this as an attack on you or your beliefs. I
 GS> will not pretend to be open to Moon's message because of what I
 GS> know about it and how it is inconsistent with what God has
 GS> revealed in the past, but I am curious about your reasons for
 GS> becoming his follower.

 I can understand clearly from the way you phrased your questions that
 you are not attacking.  I appreciate that.  My reasons for becoming a
 follower of Rev. Moon is largely a result of the opportunity I saw to
 make a peaceful world.   Rev. Moons teaching is the first ideology that
 harmonizes faith and reason.

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Date       03-08-92 15:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moon

 TB>I believe Jesus Christ anointed Rev. Moon with the mission to
 TB>establish the kingdom of God on earth.

 WC>    Not hardly! Jesus is coming back in clouds in power and glory

 You mean he must wait for a rainy day? <grin>   What if it is not cloudy
 in Fla. or California?  Will this return take place in stages?

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Date       03-08-92 16:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Religion

 WC>    Go ahead, tell us how Christians do not know how to suffer
 WC> for love.

 So what are you doing NOW to keep up that sacrificial tradition?.  Truly
 Christianity has done exactly as prophesied... gotten drunk on the blood
 of the saints.    Christianity has failed.  The opportunity came for
 christians to support a true man of God and they did NOT know the time
 of their visitation.  They sat back and watched Rev. Moon try to save
 America and they did nothing but get it the way.  What a pity. What a
 shame. What a dishonor to their ancestors!  What a crime against God.

 MAT 23:15   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
 compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make
 him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

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Date       03-08-92 16:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Savage
Subject    Satan

 RS>   I highly recommend you study out the "satan" fable and get
 RS> past this supersticion because the truth of the Scriptures is so
 RS> much more exciting when we dispell the boogie-man and marry the
 RS> Word of God with reality.   An excellent book on the subject,
 RS> "Satan Dispelled" (Originally published as: 'Lucifer
 RS> Scrutinized, Satan Dispelled') can be obtained from America's
 RS> Promise Ministries, Box 157, Sandpoint, ID 83864 ($2.00)
 RS>   I'd also strongly recommend ordering the cassette tape series
 RS> by the late Pastor Sheldon Emry entitled, "Give the Devil His
 RS> Due" (4 tapes) $12.00

 Give me a taste of the crux of this message.   Do you want to explain
 away the reality of evil?  What is your goal?

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Date       03-08-92 16:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Harlow Campbell
Subject    Wait a minute.

 HC> If he exists, he shows signs of instability and insanity.

 Not proven, and not proveable.    Did you ever examine God?  Did you
 read any book that he wrote?  Maybe you are judging God by a book that
 fallen men wrote about Him?

 HC> Worse, he displays
 HC> no sense of humor except in the creation of creationists.

 Now that is possible.

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Date       03-08-92 16:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject     Where Are God'S Gran

 SK> I agree with Terry on this one.  He can't create grand children
 SK> because anything he directly creates would be his children by
 SK> definition.

 Finally I met someone with some sense.  Are you looking for a job?
 <grin>   The pay is excellent!  The benifits are too!


 Remember you can never have too much eternal life insurance.

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Date       03-08-92 16:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Why

 JS> If you would only read the Bible, you wouldn't have to guess!
 JS> God _does_ want worship (Exo. 34:14, Deut 26:10, Isa. 66:23,
 JS> Matt. 4:10, Luke 4:8,

 Well worship Him/Her !  The problem I have is with the terminology.
 When you worship someone you push them so far above you that they are
 not even welcomed to come to your home and visit.  My God is free to
 come see me anytime. Yours too.  When your God gets lonely He can come
 and talk to me.

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Date       03-08-92 18:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jud Phillips
Subject    Justice

 JP> We sometimes refer to Christ as the
 JP> Second Adam. Through his life, he was what Adam should have
 JP> been.

 Yes up till he was murdered.  Thenhe could not be the husbamd and father
 that Adam should have been!

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Date       03-08-92 18:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jud Phillips
Subject    Justice

 JP> The most important part of the ministry of Christ on earth was
 JP> not his crucifixtion (thought you will hear that in Western
 JP> theology). The most important part was that he rose from the
 JP> dead, thus destroying the curse of death.

 Jesus resurrection was the victory.  However, let's not forget that both
 Moses and Elijah were seen and aparently resurrected a few days earlier.
 Did they not overcome death also?

 MAT 17:3    And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
 talking with him. MAT 17:4    Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,
 Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three
 tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. MAR 9:4
 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking
 with Jesus. MAR 9:5     And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it
 is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for
 thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. LUK 9:30    And, behold,
 there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: LUK 9:33
 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus,
 Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles;
 one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he
 said.

 Why didn't the resurrection of Moses and Elijah make them a messiah?

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Date       03-09-92 07:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jud Phillips
Subject    Events Not In Scipture

 JP> The point is, the sum total of all knowledge, history, etc is
 JP> not in the New Testament. Somethings that the church did were
 JP> not included in the cannon of scripture.

 Walter thinks that the Bible contains ALL knowledge.  He doesn't
 understand how the Bible came into existence through the councils and
 canonization.   Try to tell him that buckling his seat belt is a good
 idea and he will scream EXTRA-BIBLICAL.    His faith grew out of the old
 school where ration and reason were frowned upon.   He will tell you
 that it is not reasonable that men put together the modern Bible, it
 kinda fell out of the clouds, like Jesus is going to do one day.

 He frequently tells me that my faith is rational BUT that it contradicts
 scripture.  In other words he is saying that scripture contradicts
 rational.

 Walter is a good man who is serious about serving God.  I pray that he
 can open his mind to the possibility that God was the first scientist
 and is a very rational being. ( not that all scientist are rational )
 <grin>

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Date       03-09-92 07:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         David Stoddard
Subject     TRINITY EXPOSED AS TS TR

 DS> They, being God, choose to create a material environment to
 DS> generate life than is subject to the constraints of that
 DS> materialism until they are renewed into
 DS> an immortal entity such as God is. This way man can be tested to
 DS> see what he will choose to be: perfect or unrighteous. Because
 DS> God knows the beginning
 DS> from the end of all actions and events, he knew man would
 DS> faulter and sin and many, even  all would be lost.

 Incorrect theology.   First if God knows all he doesn't need to test
 man.  Second he did not know that man would sin.  In fact it grieved him
 when man fell.  No one, even God, does something that will knowingly
 make them unhappy.  Did you start to participate in this conference
 because you wanted to get depressed?

 DS> The Word God elected to give up control of
 DS> his Godship and take on the weakness of man that He might save
 DS> any, some, most, or all who choose to accept Him.

 So there was no God when Jesus came?  Who was Jesus praying to?

 I have to admit this is a most confusing theology you are presenting.  I
 know it is run-of-the-mill christian thinking but it needs correcting.

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Date       03-09-92 10:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christianity          2/

 WC> TB>ter). Selling flowers and candy while facing humiliation and
 WC> TB>ridicule, year after year.
 WC>    It is interesting that Jesus never required this type of
 WC> activity of His followers. Rather people brought the funds of
 WC> their own free will. It was not required of them.

 It was not "required"  of me either. I wanted to take up the cross.  I
 found the heart of God in that difficult situation.  Most likely that is
 the major difference between what you know about God and my direct
 experience with him.

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Date       03-09-92 10:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        1/

 WC>  WC>>You can have that self same experience that
 WC> those in the Book of WC>>Acts had also.
 WC> TB>But I have.... and MUCH MUCH MORE !  Look where I have been:
 WC> TB>REV 19:9    And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they
 WC> which TB>are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he
 WC> saith unto TB>me, These are the true sayings of God.

 WC>    Unfortunately the reference has yet to occur. Therefore, it
 WC> is impossible for you to have been to the marriage supper of the
 WC> Lamb. That is one experience which no one living or dead has had
 WC> yet.

 Mat 16:3

 WC> TB>Rev. Moon already predicted this would happen.
 WC>    And the Bible predicted that there would be false messiahs

 Why? It is because one day there would be a True one.  If a True messiah
 were really coming back from outer space there would be no need for such
 a warning.  How did Jesus show us to identify a false prophet?

 LUK 6:26    Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so
 did their fathers to the false prophets.

 Have you head anyone, other that my small voice crying in the
 wilderness, speaking well of Rev. Moon.  There you have it !  I'm
 finally glad this issue is settled. Since you believe Jesus you now KNOW
 Rev. Moon really is NOT a false prophet !

 WC> TB>There eventually will be a full page, on the front page, of
 WC> ALL TB>newspapers and it won't be a paid add. This headline will
 WC> read: TB>"True Parents have Arrived !"
 WC>    The headlines could very well make such a statement. However,
 WC> it will be contradicted by Scripture and will be no more true
 WC> than others proclaiming the arrival of Messiah.

 REV 1:7   ....and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced
 him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so,
 Amen.

 WC> TB>If you would only pray and ask God, He could tell you too.
 WC>    I did and He did. I have already posted the answer I received
 WC> a number of months ago on this very subject. You never
 WC> acknowledged it.

 1TH 5:17    Pray without ceasing.

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Date       03-09-92 11:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        2/

 WC> The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against
 WC> the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter
 WC> against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in
 WC> law, and the daugh- ter in law against her mother in law.
 WC>    You version of the Second Advent is diametrically opposed by
 WC> Scripture. Why should I take your version over that of
 WC> Scripture? Did God lie to us?

 "Against"  means to disagree with.   You are "against" me but you have
 not committed any acts of violence.  Even as strongly as I oppose your
 misguided interpretations of scripture, I don't seek to kill you or
 convert you via force.

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Date       03-09-92 11:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        2/

 WC>    Only when what he teaches is not contradicted by Scripture.
 WC> God does not contradict Himself. If the teaching of the Rev Moon
 WC> are truly from God then the Bible is a lie because the two are
 WC> incompatible.

 Ask any Jewish scholar of the Old Testament if your New Testament is in
 harmony and you will get a resounding "NO" !  So if your new addition to
 the scripture is contradicting the original testament, why doesn't that
 make the New Testament part of the Bible a lie?   Just apply whatever
 answer you may have about this to the question you are asking me about
 the contradictions you "think" you have found between the Bible and the
 Divine Principle.

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Date       03-09-92 11:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        2/

 WC>    Where the Bible teaches the absolute deity of Jesus you teach
 WC> that He is only a man with a "christed" spirit.

 Jesus Christ was the True son of God.  He was born sinless and grew up
 to be the spiritual savior and true father of all mankind.  He died for
 the sins of faithless of the world.    Hardly one of "the boys."
 Hardly like you and I.  God was his direct father.  No one since Adam
 and Eve could make that claim.

 WC> TB>Yes, God's and his children's.  Especially the Second and
 WC> Third TB>Adam.
 WC>    Yes, the Second Adam. But there will NEVER be a third Adam.

 Extra-biblical

 WC> it say exactly the opposite of what it actually says.
 WC> Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye
 WC> gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from
 WC> you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN
 WC> HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.    That is about as plain as one can get.

 How did Jesus leave?  He left as a MURDER victim, while being jeered by
 the very people God had prepared for several thousand years to believe
 in him.  Christ will have difficulty finding faith when he returns
 because that is the way he left !

 WC> Jesus will come back in clouds of glory in like manner in which
 WC> He ascended. That is what the Bible says. You say differently.
 WC> The two views are incompatible. Only one is true. Either you are
 WC> correct and God is a liar or else God is telling us the truth.

 Or #3 you don't understand the true meaning of scripture.

 How will the Second Coming of Christ take place?  In considering this,
 let us first look at the second coming of Elijah.  In fact, the second
 coming of Elijah is the clearest example that God has given us related
 to how Christ will come again.

 Through the prophet Malachi, God promised to send Elijah again, before
 the coming of the Messiah (Mal 4:5).  So Israelites of that time who
 were waiting for the Messiah were actually waiting for the second coming
 of Elijah, because he was to precede the Messiah.  Because the second
 coming of Elijah was to be the return of the Elijah who had ascended
 into heaven, the people believed that Elijah would surely descend from
 heaven.  Yet, Jesus clearly declared that John the Baptist, who was born
 on earth, was Elijah (Mt 11:14; 17:13). However, that the second coming
 of Elijah took place through John the Baptist does not mean that Elijah,
 himself, was born again as John the Baptist.  Elijah was in the spirit
 world, helping John the Baptist, who was on earth, since John was born
 with the same mission (Lk 1:17). So, although the mission was the same,
 the person was different.

 Through this lesson learned from the second coming of Elijah, we can
 understand that the Second Coming might possible take place by the
 Lord's being born on earth.  We can also understand that though at the
 Second Coming, the Lord, as the Messiah, will have the same mission as
 Jesus, he may not have the same appearance as Jesus (Jn 14:16,17; 16:12;
 Rev 19:12; 2:17).

                    Lessons based on the First Coming

 In the Old Testament, we find two contradictory prophecies concerning
 the coming of the Messiah.  In Daniel 7:13, we find the prophecy that
 the Lord would come on the clouds:  "I saw in the night visions, and
 behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man..."
 However, the prophet Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in
 Bethlehem (Mic 5:2).  Which of these contradictory prophecies did the
 Israelites believe?

 Knowing the influence of the two prophets Daniel and Micah on the
 Israelites, and knowing that the Israelites had great faith in God, we
 know that they were waiting for the Messiah to come from heaven.

 It was for this reason that even after the crucifixion of Jesus, an
 anti-Christian movement arose saying that Jesus could not have been the
 Messiah because he was born in the flesh on earth.  This can be
 understood in the warning by the apostle John:  "For many deceivers have
 gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of
 Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the anti-
 christ" (2 Jn 7:8).

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Date       03-09-92 11:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    last days

 WC> TB>God wanted Adam and Eve to mature through obedience to the
 WC> com- TB>mandment.
 WC>    God created Adam and Eve as fully functioning adults in every
 WC> sense of the word.

 I would think any religious person would call sin a "misfunction."  How
 could anything that was fully functional deviate from the purpose for
 which it was created.  Are you trying to teach us that God created Adam
 and Eve for the purpose that they would sin?   If a "full functioning"
 creature sinned then we would have to conclude they were intentionally
 designed to sin...   or they misfunctioned.   Which was it?

 WC> TB>Adam did not grow to perfection, but Jesus did.
 WC>    God CREATED Adam and Eve as fully functioning adults in every
 WC> sense of the word. That includes free will.

 Freedom does not cause sin.  You are free to get drunk, even encouraged
 by the brewing industry,  but do you live in intoxication?  You are free
 to kill yourself but you haven't exercised that freedom.  So freedom
 does not result in sin.

 WC> TB>However, that is not the only failure Adam made.  Adam did
 WC> not TB>establish a God centered family.
 WC>    This is extra-biblical and cannot be supported from
 WC> Scripture.

 How naive !  GEN 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came
 to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his
 brother, and slew him.

 Is this the God-centered family model you want everyone to follow?  Do
 you think that parents are not responsible for the actions of their
 children?  1CO 15:22   For as in Adam all die

 Why do all men die because Adam died?  Simple Adam was the father of
 mankind.   Was Jesus only talking about himself when he said:

 JOH 5:19    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I
 say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the
 Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son
 likewise.

 Consider this one more time:

 JOH 8:41    Ye do the deeds of your father...
 JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your
 father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,

 TB>Jesus wanted to celebrate the marriage of the Lamb
 WC> 2,000 years ago TB>but he could not find faith and was murdered.
 WC>    You have not one verse of Scripture that Jesus wanted to
 WC> cele- brate the marriage of the Lamb 2000 years ago. The concept
 WC> is extra- biblical.

 You should take note of the them of the "bridegroom" in the New
 Testament.

 WC> TB>When the Messiah returns he must be born in the flesh
 WC>    This is totally extra-biblical. I have pointed out many times
 WC> and given Scriptural references which contradict this belief.
 WC> You have never once answered with scriptural reference which
 WC> supports your position on this.

 It will happen.

 TB>So the Messiah will be born of a woman, and marry a woman.
 TB>His wife, the wife of the king of kings, will not be an

 WC>    I have posted to you on a number of occasions the passages
 WC> from Revelation which clearly demonstrate that the bride will
 WC> NOT be a woman. You have continually ignored these passages and
 WC> not even at- tempted to explain them away.

 Your interpretation is simply wrong.  You don't know the time of you
 visitation.  It is like you go to the airport and wait for your
 fathered to arrive, but he is coming by train.  In this case your Father
 is coming from his mother.

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Date       03-09-92 11:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    last days

 TB>Together they will be the True Parents of mankind. They will give
 TB>birth to sinless children, and begin a new history of mankind.
 TB>They will make all things new through the recreation of a God cen-
 TB>tered family which will expand to a clan, society, national and
 TB>world wide level.

 WC>    All of it is extra-biblical. You cannot find a single passage
 WC> of Scripture which will support this position but will find many
 WC> which contradict you.

 So tell us misguided souls how Christ can make all things new if he
 doesn't restore the True Family of God...  the husband wife relationship
 himself, and the parent child relationship.  How can Christ make all
 things new if he doesn't parent sinless children.

 REV 21:5    And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all
 things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and
 faithful.

 You simply don't believe Christ will make "all things new."   Or you
 believe in magic.  I'm getting worried about your Walter.

 WC> TB>Anyone seeking to do the will of God must find the true
 WC> parents TB>and get adopted into their family.
 WC>    Extra-biblical. There are people who are so mentally
 WC> handicapped that they cannot find true parents or get adopted
 WC> into their family.

 They couldn't accept Christ as savior either so: Your position leaves
 these people out to suffer because of their birth. Since God is just
 then your position is not correct. It is thus extra-biblical.

 TB>You have the opportunity to directly connect to the True Parents
 TB>while you are living on earth.

 WC>    This is an impossibility since there is no such thing as
 WC> "True Parents" as you have described. There are only human
 WC> parents. There is not a single one living on earth that is
 WC> perfect nor will be until after the Second Advent...

 Even as you write this, you are hoping you are wrong.   Your greatest
 hope is the return of Christ.  You can't tell me you would really be
 disappointed if he is here now.   Do you really want to abandon that
 hope if Christ returns born of a woman?

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Date       03-09-92 11:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiah and Jews

 WC>  Not only that but Jesus is also God as well as man. He has a
 WC> dual nature. He is both divine and human.

 BEWARE !  You are breaking one of the big 10 !  There is only 1 God.

 MAR 10:18   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there
 is] none good but one, [that is], God. MAR 12:29   And Jesus answered
 him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord
 our God is one Lord:

 WC> TB>The south will not be slaves to the dictator of the north,
 WC> and TB>the north will not surrender to the south either.  Both
 WC> will TB>realize a third choice which will make Korea the most
 WC> coveted land TB>in the world.

 WC>    There is no third choice so long as the present bloodthirsty
 WC> leaders of North Korea remain in power. They would totally
 WC> destroy both countries rather than see an end to their personal
 WC> rule. And if they remain in power the only way the a merger will
 WC> work is for those of the south to become mind slaves to the
 WC> dictators of the north.

 Seems I have heard this report somewhere before?  Oh Yes, here it is:

 NUM 13:33   And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, [which come]
 of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we
 were in their sight. NUM 14:1    And all the congregation lifted up
 their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.

 God didn't like that report then, do you think he has changed?

 NUM 14:11    And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people
 provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the
 signs which I have shewed among them? NUM 14:12 I will smite them with
 the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater
 nation and mightier than they.

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Date       03-09-92 12:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Nature of God

 GT> You contend that we are children of God and that because we
 GT> are his children, God wishes for us to be happy. Our
 GT> happiness and correct interactions with God make him happy.
 GT> You contend that the purpose of the Creation was man, because
 GT> God wants children and that chance and randomness are
 GT> apparent and not real.

 Gee, did I say that !  It is beautiful !  If only I had an editor like
 you I may not get into such trouble with Walter.

 GT> My observations in nature and of man make me doubt that we
 GT> are God's children.

 Yes, we are fallen. That fallen side of man is not hidden.

 GT> We prosper and suffer randomly. The
 GT> sinner is as likely to prosper as the Saint. The Saint is as
 GT> likely to suffer as the sinner.

 Actually no one is made it to sainthood that did not suffer much more
 than the average sinner.  Saints suffer more and appear to prosper less.
 But the fat lady hasn't sung.  Is it possible to be rewarded, in the
 next life for the suffering one does for the purpose of goodness in
 this life?   I don't want to start preaching "pie in the sky", but I do
 realize the value in storing treasures in heaven.

 GT> A shark attacking a group of swimmers
 GT> will attack the one it feels most likely to succeed with. It
 GT> cares not for the fears, aspirations or religious faith of
 GT> the potential meal.

 I gather you don't buy into that Daniel in the lion's den story?

 GT> If we were truly children of God, we would be more Godlike.

 Good, you see where we are and where we need to be.  How does one become
 Godlike?  How can we achieve this goal?   To me it is a matter of
 reversing our priorities.  Rather than looking out for #1 at the expense
 of others, we maybe should experiment with looking out for all.  Then #1
 would be taken care of.   Do you know any parents that teach this by
 example?

 GT> As I stated earlier, I feel that we are closer to a lizard
 GT> then we are to God, yet we don't care a fig what a lizard
 GT> thinks about us. Even if man were perfect, I still feel that
 GT> he would be too far from Godhead for God to care about him
 GT> individually.

 We still have to deal with the question: "How can we find God."   Do you
 think we will ever be truly happy as long as we are separated from our
 creator?   Some little quite voice tells me we need to get back to the
 Garden.  Do you ever hear that voice?

 GT> I agree that we need more thinkers on this. Pedro, Jim, Phil,
 GT> Walter and anybody have any thoughts or comments? The basic
 GT> question is: Does God really care for Man? Is man a special
 GT> creation? If so why? What *REAL* evidence do we have for this
 GT> idea. If this question cannot be truly resolved, then all
 GT> your thoughts on the trinity, Jesus, the Bible, The Koran and
 GT> all other religious ideas are useless.

 A BIG resounding AMEN !

 Does God care for Man?  Where is the proof?   Anyone care to take a shot
 at answering this question?

 GT> If God is a rational,
 GT> logical being and man is important to God, then we should be
 GT> able to find a logical and sensible reason for His concern
 GT> with mankind. If we are truly children of God, then why are
 GT> we so weak and helpless? Is it really because of a sin by an
 GT> ancestor, or is it because we have not evolved/grown to the
 GT> point where we are near enough to God for him to notice us.

 Probably both.  Not that God can't notice us, but sin has resulted in
 "pollution" of man's thinking ( as a result of thinking about himself
 /herself all the time ) has blocked out or impaired our receiver. All we
 are getting is static.   The solution seems to find someone who's
 receiver is not broken or obstructed.  We look for such "guides" and
 after we condemn them as heretics, we adopt their heresies.

 The reason God can't rule us is because a perfect being cannot directly
 govern an imperfect people. ...just like a perfect conductor would find
 it impossible to orchestrate a group of musicians who could not play the
 scale.  So we must "evolve."  This means we have to change.  So fallen
 man seeks salvation. But the word salvation has to be understood. Saved
 from what to where?    That's another question that should be opened up
 for general consumption.

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Date       03-09-92 12:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Nature of God

 GT> Could there be other possibilities? Is is possible that God
 GT> was destroyed in the act of creation?

 Actually, the resurrection of man is also the resurrection of God.  God
 can't be the subject of the universe if He has no object that manifest
 and reflect His character and nature.   It is really like trying to be a
 husband without a wife.  The very essence of God implies partnership.
 Who is God's partner?  Who is the object of God's love?   Is a monkey in
 the image of God?  Did God place man in this object position? Since
 fallen man is not in the image of God either, we must find a way to
 recreate ourselves.  Creation requires thought, a plan, and will to
 carry out that plan.  Recreation also must be organized.   The Messiah
 comes with the plan, but as we say in Jesus case, no one was willing to
 follow.  The great conductor had no qualified musicians.  The show ended
 in a great tragedy.


 GT> Is it possible that God
 GT> is the universe. Could the creation of the universe be an act
 GT> of self creation by God?

 God did project himself into the universe.  That is exactly what St.
 Paul said:

 ROM 1:20    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
 world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
 [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 What do we find in the universe?  Dual characteristics of male and
 female, positivity and negativity, all the way from electrons and
 protons to man and woman.  We also note the dual characteristics of
 internal character and external form, mind and body.   This internal
 character appears as instincts in the animal kingdom, tropisms in the
 plant world, and some kind of inherent directive nature in minerals,
 molecules, and atoms.   The internal character or mind is the subject
 part.  A plant grows the external roots, trunk, limbs and leaves
 according to the blue print in the seed.   The internal part of man, the
 mind is in the subject position.   In our mind we find a character that
 is composed of emotion, intellect, and will.  Of these characteristics,
 it is our emotion that is the strongest.  We will do anything, no matter
 how irrational, for the purpose of love and happiness.  Where did these
 elements come from?  They came from God.  God too has emotion, intellect
 and will.  The most dominant characteristic of God is His heart.  That
 is why we read that God is love.  If someone loves God then then He will
 feel it. It may be like pulling a single hair out of his head, but
 nevertheless it will get His attention.



 GT> Is is possible that the universe has
 GT> grown beyond even God's comprehension?

 Yes, but in the opposite direction.  I can't believe that God ever
 conceived of a world like the one we have been living in.

 GT> I'll be out of town from wednesday March 12 until Thursday
 GT> April 2, 1992. Please hold replies or re-post the best ones
 GT> then.

 If you don't respond I'll repost.   Maybe by that time we will get back
 some answers from the "experts."

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Date       03-09-92 13:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Perfect

 WC> TB>True, sin cannot enter heaven.  But is it really impossible
 WC> for TB>man to be sinless?

 WC>    Absolutely not. All one has to do is to put on the robes of
 WC> righteousness of Jesus Christ. When were are covered by the
 WC> blood of Jesus (shed at Calvary) God sees no sin.

 So since it can't be seen it does not exist?  Can you see aids?

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Date       03-09-92 13:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject    polytheism

 SK> Catholics and Protestants have a polytheistic religion but
 SK> disguising it in a one God exterior.

 I see a new tag line developing.

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Date       03-09-92 13:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Spirits

 WC> TB>So why are people experiencing spiritual phenomena?
 WC>    Because Satan knows that he has only a short time left.

 Are you hinting that Satan is behind spiritual phenomena?
 Is that why people like Zacharias, Mary, Joseph, Simon, Anna, the
 Shepherds, and John the Baptist had spiritual experiences 2,000 years
 ago?

 WC> TB>There must be some reason for spirits to return to the earth.
 WC>    Who said that they RETURNED to earth. The demonic spirits
 WC> have been around since the fall.

 Must be multiplying because at the fall there were only 2 people.  There
 were already enough demonic spirits to take care of the 4.5 billion
 people living today?

 WC> TB>Why did Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus?
 WC>    So that Peter, James, and John could be witness. They were
 WC> al- lowed to see the future state of resurrected man.

 So this was just a hallucination?

 WC> TB>Have you never had a spiritual experience?
 WC>    I have them continually, Terry. I invite you again to
 WC> accompany me to church and you can observe for yourself.
 WC> TB>Do you think only Satan and the Holy Spirit can influence
 WC> you?    The spirit world operates in either right or wrong,
 WC> black or white. There are no shades of gray or in between. One
 WC> is either influ- enced by God or by Satan and his angels.

 How can you say this?  It is Extra-biblical.

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Date       03-09-92 13:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Trinity Exposed

 CR> Jesus was tempted by Satan. Satan was trying to get Jesus to be
 CR> disloyal to his Father, Jehovah. He was'nt trying to get Jesus
 CR> to be disloyal to himself,or an equal part of himself

 Ha ha ha,  you just won't let up.  If they aren't convienced by now,
 they will never know the truth.

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Date       03-09-92 13:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Trinity Exposed

 CR> I have the Bible, and I have God's holy spirit. What more does a
 CR> person need?

 Humility ?

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Date       03-09-92 13:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Why 1/2

 GT> I see little difference between the normal concept of original
 GT> sin and your postulate of spiritual death. Just because Adam and
 GT> Eve were spiritually dead is no reason for their offspring to
 GT> be. If I am not mistaken, our spirituality comes from God, not
 GT> from genetics.

 Yes, our spirits come from God, but indirectly.  God allows our parents
 to create our spirit.  That is what makes man in the image of God.  Man
 is the ONLY created being that has the potential to create another
 ETERNAL being.  How can 2 spiritually dead beings create a being with a
 living spirit?   Christianity has been correct is seeking rebirth
 through the spiritual parents, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, in order to
 reawaken the dead spirit given to us by our parents.   Unfortunately
 this awakening is not effective until death.  So, even the most reborn
 believers still can't give birth to sinless children with living
 spirits.  Their children in turn need to be born again to infuse life
 into their lifeless spiritual bodies.

 The only way to break this cycle is through the marriage of the Lamb.
 When Christ and his bride marry, they will be able to forgive fallen men
 and woman while on earth, adopt them into their family, and bless them
 in holy marriage.  This will open the way for sinless children, with
 life, to appear.  Rebirth will no longer be needed because people will
 be born right the first time.

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Date       03-09-92 21:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject    ANYTHING

 PM>  Did you see Ralph's post to me, saying that he could
 PM>  to ANYTHING and still go to heaven when he died?

 That is the way every fundamental christian (that I have met) thinks and
 believes.  Even more amazing !   Did you see Walter saying that God
 can't see sin of believers?   Almighty God can't see his sin ...but I
 can. <grin>      I know God can see mine.  Even if Walter can't.

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Date       03-09-92 22:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Finished Work

 PM>  For anyone who wants to spend $2.95 I strongly recommend
 PM>  Dan Jarrad's 60 page book entitled THE ANTICHRIST EXPOSED.
 PM>  (Messages of Hope, P.O.Box 6749, High Point, NC 27262)

 How about a brief report on this book?   What is Mr. Jarrad's bottom
 line.

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Date       03-09-92 22:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Messiah and Jews

 PM>    apply.  Yup, me.   I am a spiritual Jew, and don't care
 PM>    who knows it.   I credit many with being in the true
 PM>    Israel, even if *they* don't know it.   Or care.

 The name 'Israel' was originally received by Jacob after he prevailed
 over the angel at the ford of the Jabbok (Gen 32:28) and means 'he who
 has strived with God'.  In other words, 'Israel' means the people of God
 who have triumphed in faith and does not necessarily mean the lineal
 descendants of Jacob.  This is borne out in the words of John the
 Baptist in Matthew 3:9 " '...do not presume to say to yourselves, "We
 have Abraham as our father"; for I tell you, God is able from these
 stones to raise up children to Abraham.' "  It is again borne out by St.
 Paul when he said in Romans 9:6, "For not all who are descended from
 Israel belong to Israel..."

 Then who would be the chosen people of "Israel" after Jesus' death on
 the cross?  They are the devout Christians who believe in the Lord.
 Romans 11:11 says, "...through their [the Israelites'] trespass
 salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous." This
 indicates that the center of God's Dispensation for Restoration has
 shifted from the Israelites.  Then God will work his central dispen-
 sation not among the lineal descendants of Abraham, but among the devout
 Christians who have taken up the faith of Abraham.

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Date       03-09-92 22:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Barefield
Subject    Perfect

 MB> Seems to me the issue is not so much sin but righteousness.  Sin
 MB> has to  do with spiritual nature.  According to IIcor 5:17 that
 MB> is changed when  we are born again.  We put on the nature of
 MB> Christ and receive the gift  of righteousness according to
 MB> Romans.  Sin is no longer a problem.√ IIcor 5:19 says that God
 MB> was in Christ reconcling the world to Himself,"not imting their
 MB> trespasses unto them"... He is not counting up sins on√ His
 MB> children.

 Thanks for your response.

 First I have to say that sin is going to always be a problem until we
 find a way to prevent it from spreading to our children.  At some point
 in history God must establish a sinless couple so they can have children
 that are without need of rebirth.  Or some condition must be established
 to allow fallen man to be adopted into the Messiah's lineage so their
 children can be connected to the Messiah's lineage.  I know that Christ
 is not counting up sins, but sin is the reason he suffered and was
 murdered.  The purpose Christ came was to do away with the work of the
 Devil.  The work of the Devil is sin.


 Ps.  I noticed you using my bbs.  You should check out the Megamail off
 line reader.  You can tell it you want to extract the messages in this
 conference.  It will copy the ones you have not read and compress them
 for your to download and read off line.  You can take more time and
 quote part of a message you are responding to  then  not be rushed to
 reply.  You can also download SS23.zip and it will spell check your
 messages.   Bulletin #1 gives a brief overview of how it works.  If you
 are using Telemate, I have a script that you can use with Tm to call and
 automatically get your messages.  They could be waiting for you to read
 when you get home from work or wake up in the morning.    Let me know if
 I can help.  ...ask in conference #1 so it won't be going out on the
 network.

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Date       03-09-92 22:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Resurrection

 PM> TB> Jesus already came.
 PM>
 PM>    So how come we missed His return?       phil

 Several reasons, but we can begin by realizing it is not the first time
 this happened:

 JOH 1:11    He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 MAT 27:40   If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


 How will the Second Coming of Christ take place?  In considering this,
 let us first look at the second coming of Elijah.  In fact, the second
 coming of Elijah is the clearest example that God has given us related
 to how Christ will come again.

 Through the prophet Malachi, God promised to send Elijah again, before
 the coming of the Messiah (Mal 4:5).  So Israelites of that time who
 were waiting for the Messiah were actually waiting for the second coming
 of Elijah, because he was to precede the Messiah.  Because the second
 coming of Elijah was to be the return of the Elijah who had ascended
 into heaven, the people believed that Elijah would surely descend from
 heaven.  Yet, Jesus clearly declared that John the Baptist, who was born
 on earth, was Elijah (Mt 11:14; 17:13). However, that the second coming
 of Elijah took place through John the Baptist does not mean that Elijah,
 himself, was born again as John the Baptist.  Elijah was in the spirit
 world, helping John the Baptist, who was on earth, since John was born
 with the same mission (Lk 1:17). So, although the mission was the same,
 the person was different.

 Through this lesson learned from the second coming of Elijah, we can
 understand that the Second Coming might possible take place by the
 Lord's being born on earth.  We can also understand that though at the
 Second Coming, the Lord, as the Messiah, will have the same mission as
 Jesus, he may not have the same appearance as Jesus (Jn 14:16,17; 16:12;
 Rev 19:12; 2:17).

 In the Old Testament, we find two contradictory prophecies concerning
 the coming of the Messiah.  In Daniel 7:13, we find the prophecy that
 the Lord would come on the clouds:  "I saw in the night visions, and
 behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man..."
 However, the prophet Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in
 Bethlehem (Mic 5:2).  Which of these contradictory prophecies did the
 Israelites believe?

 Knowing the influence of the two prophets Daniel and Micah on the
 Israelites, and knowing that the Israelites had great faith in God, we
 know that they were waiting for the Messiah to come from heaven.

 It was for this reason that even after the crucifixion of Jesus, an
 anti-Christian movement arose saying that Jesus could not have been the
 Messiah because he was born in the flesh on earth.  This can be
 understood in the warning by the apostle John:  "For many deceivers have
 gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of
 Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the anti-
 christ" (2 Jn 7:8).
      From what is shown in the examples of Elijah's second coming and
 Jesus' coming, both of which were the direct work of God, one cannot
 help but give serious thought to the prophecies for the Second Coming.
      In summary, the New Testament not only contains prophecies that say
 Christ will come as a judge amidst glory on a cloud from heaven, but
 also some that say he will come again just as he did the first time,
 quite contrary to the other type of prophecy of his coming on the
 clouds.
      We read in Luke 17:24,25 that Jesus, anticipating what was going to
 happen at the Second Coming, said," '...so will the Son of man be in his
 day.  But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this
 generation.'"  If the Lord should come again amidst power and glory,
 with the trumpet call of the archangel, who would dare deny and
 persecute him?  Would you persecute him?
      Today, many faithful Christians and churches are looking up to the
 sky, waiting for the Lord to come on the clouds.  If he were to come on
 the clouds, there would be no reason for him to be persecuted. However,
 if he does not come on a literal cloud, and instead comes in the flesh,
 as at the First Coming, then it becomes apparent why Jesus said he would
 first suffer before finally being recognized (Lk 17:24,25).
      Revelation 12:5 says," ...she brought forth a male child, one who
 is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught
 up to God and to his throne."  The man who will rule the world with a
 rod of iron is the coming Lord.  In this verse, it says that he will be
 born of a woman.  When the Pharisees wanted to know the time of the
 Second Coming, they asked Jesus when the Kingdom of God was coming, and
 he answered,"...'The Kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be
 observed...'" (Lk 17:20).  Everyone can gaze up at heaven, but Jesus
 said that the coming of God's Kingdom, in other words, the Second Coming
 will not be visible.  Why is that so?  It is because the Messiah does
 not come on a literal cloud.  In Luke 18:8, Jesus said, " 'I tell you,
 he will vindicate them speedily.  Nevertheless, when the Son of man
 comes, will he find faith on earth?' "Jesus was prophesying that he
 would not find faith on earth at his second coming.  This means that
 when he comes, there will be almost no one who will be saved by their
 complete faith. Based on the Bible lessons learned from God's work in
 history, the Second Coming will occur as the first coming did, with the
 Messiah's being born in the flesh on earth.  Indeed, he comes as the Son
 of man.

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Date       03-09-92 22:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject       THE GREAT CONTROVEOVE

 PM>   I would say, not that we are born sinners, but rather
 PM>   born with a tendency to commit sin, when the opportunity
 PM>   presents.
 PM>
 PM>   Jesus was tempted in all points like we are.  Therefore
 PM>   He must have had a fallen nature like we have, in order
 PM>   to have been tempted "like we are".

 So why do we believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the only person that was
 able to resist sin?   If estimations are correct that over 25 billion
 people have lived, doesn't it seem rather unlikely that if everyone were
 born like Christ he would be the ONLY one to resist sin?

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Date       03-09-92 22:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Williams
Subject     Trinity Explained

 [overheard]
 JW> Ya know, I have discussed the Bible for quite some time in local
 JW> message bases only, and you are the first I have ever heard say
 JW> that people need some training in order to fully understand the
 JW> Bible.

 Hummm,  I thought Jesus was a teacher?  Did he not train people to
 understand the scripture?   Was he called master?   Did Jesus say:

 MAT 28:19    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations

 Why do you suppose Jesus did not say: Go ye therefore, and pass out
 Bibles to all nations."   ?     I'm not against passing out Bibles, but
 when we take a serious look at what happened at the fall of man, more
 than truth ( God's word ) was lost.  We also lost true love.  If mankind
 did not need to rediscover true love then I'm sure God could have simply
 carved a few of His favorite commandments on the side of Mt. Rushmore.

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Date       03-09-92 22:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Williams
Subject     Trinity Explained

 JW> "Intro to Religion" freshman class - but the concept tt it takes
 JW> WORK I fully understand.  Work - and an open mind.  What you
 JW> WANT the Bible to mean often interferees with what it does.

 This appears to contradict  your first statements about the Bible
 needing "teaching."   Or more exact, people who study the Bible need
 training.   Isn't the suggestions about "WORK - and an open mind" a type
 of "training" process for those who are going to undertake a course in
 Bible study?


 By the way,  I don't believe we have met.  I'm a member of the
 Unification Church, a follower of Rev. Sun Myung Moon.  If you ever need
 help with your homework, give me a shout. <grin>

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Date       03-10-92 08:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    D&D

 SH>   I have never asked you to stop praying.  The point is that you
 SH> throw   the phrase "praying with tears" around like a club.

 Maybe so,  but still we have to talk about what must be done.

 SH> TB> You don't pray.   It is impossible for a person who leads a
 SH> life of TB> prayer to see no value in Rev. Moon's advice.

 SH>   Well, I guess that depends on who, or what you are praying to,
 SH>   Harvey.  I pray to the God that is revealed in the scriptures.
 SH> You   pray to some other entity.  You might "pray with tears,"
 SH> and be   sincere in your prayers, but you are sincerely wrong.

 I might be wrong and you might be wrong.  If you think I'm praying to
 Rev. Moon then I can settle this question by letting you know that you
 are wrong.  I pray to God, and so does Rev. Moon.  If it were not for
 his prayers to God in repentance for America, God would have pulled out
 a long time ago.  America has betrayed God and just like the Roman
 empire it will decline and maybe eventually perish.

 If you are are interested in knowing how to reach the heart of God in
 prayer, I can send you a book of some of Rev. Moon's prayers.

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Date       03-10-92 08:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Hmm..

 EM> Humans have a body and a brain.  Those two things are separate,
 EM> and the brain
 EM> might be described as "higher" than the body (in the sense that
 EM> it's more complicated)--but they're still part of ONE person,
 EM> and neither can survive without the other.
 EM>
 EM>
 EM> In the same way, it's possible for the Father and the Son to
 EM> both be God, while still being somehow separate.
 EM> Why am I saying this?  People much better versed on these issues
 EM> have spoken
 EM> here abundantly already, apparently with little results.

 I understand what you are saying.  But do you believe your body is you
 or your mind is you?  Apparently you have abandoned the part of the
 trinity concept that I don't agree with. You made it clear that FATHER
 and the son separate parts of God.   In the trinity doctrine the son IS
 God.  That would be like saying the body of a man IS the man or the mind
 IS the man.

 All men are supposed to be the visible manifestation of God and God is
 likewise the invisible manifestation of man.

 I suppose the main question that results from saying that one man is God
 is what would we do if there were two like him, or if he married.  Do
 you think God can have more than one son JUST like Jesus?  I believe it
 is within  God's power.  In fact I believe God wants BILLIONS of sons
 and daughters like His son Jesus.  Would Christ would want to marry
 someone inferior to himself?  Would he have to settle for an imperfect
 bride?

 What do you do with Gen 1:28 that says God's image is both male and
 female?   If Jesus was God and so was the Holy Spirit, as well as the
 Father, we have now realized that Jesus is probably 1/3 God at most.
 Now when we realize that a man can only be 1/2 God because the image of
 God includes woman,  we have to farther divide that 1/3 and admit that
 Jesus at most could be only 1/6 God.

 I think God is like water.  Water is found everywhere.  Even a human is
 composed of 90% water.  But a man is not pure water.   Unlike water, God
 has a mind and a will to carry out any ideas or goals He conceives. So
 God can choose where He will reside.   If God chose to occupy 90% of
 Christ then still Christ is not God.

 It is clear to me that scripture recognizes this difference.  We find
 terms that describe the relationship between God and Christ like "both"
 and "neither" and "mediator" and "at the right hand"  and "sent by." In
 addition to that kind of description of their relationship, we find God
 talking to Jesus and Jesus talking to God.    Does the Father talk to
 God?  Or is this relationship unique for the son's position?

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Date       03-10-92 08:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    HOLY SPIRIT

 SH> TB> Christ.  It is not a hypothetical situation to look for the
 SH> return of TB> Christ as a man.
 SH>  "AS A MAN," yes; as a simple man, no.

 Did you know that is the reason the Jewish folk couldn't accept the
 reality that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the Messiah?

 SH>  If you are calling sin a mistake, I agree.  However, Christ's
 SH>  crucifixion was not a mistake, or an error, as you seem to feel
 SH> that  it is.

 I surely feel Christ's crucifixion was a major mistake. What will you do
 when Jesus Christ returns? Without a doubt you will answer, "I will
 receive him! Welcome him!  Unite with him! Follow him!"   Will you
 crucify him?  Surely your answer must be, "NO!"

 You should realize that I am not alone in this understanding of the
 tragedy of the MURDER of Jesus:

 Jesus ask that the cup of death could be passed from him.

 St. Paul said that the leaders and rulers did not understand, for if
 they had, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory.

 St. Stephen put it even more clearly:

 ACS 7:51    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
 ways resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. Which of
 the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them
 which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been
 now the betrayers and murderers:

 SH>  (Pssst - and "literal clouds" is a sneaky way of continuing to
 SH>  confirm that you do not believe in what the Bible says.  See
 SH> Acts  1:11)

 How will the Second Coming of Christ take place?  In considering
 this, let us first look at the second coming of Elijah.  In fact, the
 second coming of Elijah is the clearest example that God has given us
 related to how Christ will come again.

 Through the prophet Malachi, God promised to send Elijah again, before
 the coming of the Messiah (Mal 4:5).  So Israelites of that time who
 were waiting for the Messiah were actually waiting for the second coming
 of Elijah, because he was to precede the Messiah.  Because the second
 coming of Elijah was to be the return of the Elijah who had ascended
 into heaven, the people believed that Elijah would surely descend from
 heaven.  Yet, Jesus clearly declared that John the Baptist, who was born
 on earth, was Elijah (Mt 11:14; 17:13). However, that the second coming
 of Elijah took place through John the Baptist does not mean that Elijah,
 himself, was born again as John the Baptist.  Elijah was in the spirit
 world, helping John the Baptist, who was on earth, since John was born
 with the same mission (Lk 1:17). So, although the mission was the same,
 the person was different.

 Through this lesson learned from the second coming of Elijah, we can
 understand that the Second Coming might possible take place by the
 Lord's being born on earth.  We can also understand that though at the
 Second Coming, the Lord, as the Messiah, will have the same mission as
 Jesus, he may not have the same appearance as Jesus (Jn 14:16,17; 16:12;
 Rev 19:12; 2:17).

 In the Old Testament, we find two contradictory prophecies concerning
 the coming of the Messiah.  In Daniel 7:13, we find the prophecy that
 the Lord would come on the clouds:  "I saw in the night visions, and
 behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man..."
 However, the prophet Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in
 Bethlehem (Mic 5:2).  Which of these contradictory prophecies did the
 Israelites believe?

 Knowing the influence of the two prophets Daniel and Micah on the
 Israelites, and knowing that the Israelites had great faith in God, we
 know that they were waiting for the Messiah to come from heaven.

 It was for this reason that even after the crucifixion of Jesus, an
 anti-Christian movement arose saying that Jesus could not have been the
 Messiah because he was born in the flesh on earth.  This can be
 understood in the warning by the apostle John:  "For many deceivers have
 gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of
 Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the anti-
 christ" (2 Jn 7:8).

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Date       03-10-92 09:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    Jesus an Angel!!

 EM> Also note my previous comment that Jesus made this claim:  "All
 EM> authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
 EM> (Matthew 28:18)  This means that, if Jesus and Jehovah are
 EM> separate, then Jehovah is powerless because JESUS has all the
 EM> authority.

 Your conclusion may be correct:

 JOH 5:22    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
 judgment unto the Son:

 If God couldn't judge then what is there left to do?

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Date       03-10-92 09:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Edward Murphy
Subject    THE GREAT CONTROVERSY

 EM> There is NO NEED for God to create any Third Adam, start a
 EM> sinless family, or any of the other things you and the rest of
 EM> Moon's zombies claim.

 You were doing pretty good until you started flaming me.  You think you
 will win me to Christ by calling me a "zombie."   That term connotes
 immoral superiority.   You are trying to laugh at me.  There is a strong
 warning about you that you should consider before it is too late:

 LUK 6:25  [And Jesus said:] Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall
 mourn and weep.



 Your problem is that you don't REALLY believe that Christ comes to make
 ALL things new.  Christ will come and restore the family.  The birth of
 sinless children will be something NEW... don't you think?   Sinless
 children won't need to be born again... they are born right the first
 time.

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Date       03-10-92 09:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    Zach

 SH>   I don't have to tell you a single prophecy that he has MADE.

 I see.  You do agree that you do not know any of his prophecies?

 SH> I can   show you ones that he has not fullfilled.  I can show
 SH> you that he   does not believe in the word of God.  I can show
 SH> you that his   teachings are contrary to the scriptures.  And
 SH> that means that he is   not a prophet.

 That kind of evaluation would dismiss Jesus Christ himself.  Did Jesus
 come with a new message? Did the people think it was contradicting the
 Law of Moses?

 JOH 7:24    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous
 judgement.

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Date       03-10-92 09:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    Zach

 TB> supporting Jesus.  History will show that I am doing the
 right thing.

 SH> Really??

 Yes, REALLY !

 SH> Do you support the virgin birth as
 SH> prophecised in the  scriptures of the OT, and fullfilled in the
 SH> NT??

 Yes, virgin means "young woman."   Jesus' mother was indeed a young
 woman.


 SH> Do you support the  fact that Christ, as prophecised in
 SH> the OT came to be a sacrifice  for all mankind, and this is
 SH> fullfilled in the NT??

 I know that was a possibility, but I support this scripture as the goal
 which Jesus came to realize:

 ISA 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
 government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
 Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The
 Prince of Peace. Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there
 shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to
 order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from
 henceforth even for ever.

 SH> Do you support,  as the scriptures say,
 SH> that Christ will return in the same manner  that He left??

 Absolutely !  When he left, he was getting persecuted, mocked, and
 jeered by the very people he came to save.  They said to him: "If you
 are the Christ get yourself down."

 SH> Do you believe that God is omnipotent, and is in  control of the
 SH> situation?

 Do you?  If God is almighty and all good then why is there evil in the
 world.

 SH> Or do you believe that God allows  "mistakes" to
 SH> thwart His plans??

 Yes, mistakes have frequently thwarted His plans.  Notice His
 frustration:

 1SA 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he
 is turned back from following me and hath not performed my commandments.

 NUM 14:11    And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people
 provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the
 signs which I have shewed among them?

 SH> In the past, you have said that you don't
 SH> believe these things.

 Be careful.  I have EVERY message I have sent out saved AND available
 for download from my bbs.  When you make such claims you should back
 them up.

 SH> You believe that Moon is the messiah,

 He is trying with all his heart and soul to fulfill that responsibility.

 SH> yet has he fullfilled one  single prophecy concerning the return of
 SH> the messiah??  History is one God's side, Terry.  The question
 SH> is are you there?

 I'm doing what God called me to do.

 TB> You are still not praying.

 SH>  Yes I am Terry, I am praying that God will reveal the truth
 SH> about the  deception that you continue to believe in.  I am
 SH> praying that God  will finally open your eyes to the truth.  But
 SH> I have a feeling that  even though Heis calling, your line is
 SH> busy.

 Thanks for your prayers.   Maybe God will get inspired to ask the
 operator to break in on my busy connection.    I would love to get
 another all from God even though the last one has assigned me to a most
 difficult task of teaching you the truth.   I really don't know what
 could be more difficult, but I sure will not challenge God to give me a
 more difficult mission !

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Date       03-10-92 10:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Barefield
Subject    Messiah and Jews

 MB> Adam and Eve did live sinless for a time, yet they ended up
 MB> sinners. Jesus did not sin.  If He had He could not have paid
 MB> the sacrifice for our√sin.

 Were Adam and Eve God during their sinless time period?

 MB> Yet Jesus did receive worship.  The Bible clearly states that we
 MB> are to worship God and Him only, else sin.

 Can you show me where Jesus received worship?

 MB> If sinner, we are yet in our sin for His sacrifice was without
 MB> merit.

 Jesus didn't sin, so we don't have to be concerned with the validity or
 merit of his sacrifice.  His sacrifice did provide a way for fallen man
 to attain spiritual salvation.

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Date       03-10-92 10:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Barefield
Subject    Perfect

 MB> God has done all He is going to do for man's redemption.

 So are we to abandon hope of a second coming and total liberation from
 sin?


 ROM 7:22    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
 ROM 7:23    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
 of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in
 my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
 of this death?

 ROM 8:23    And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the
 firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
 waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

 Are you free from sin?  Are you perfect?  Are you looking for the second
 coming of Christ?   Do you really think God is going to leave His
 children in their current state of sin and suffering?

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Date       03-10-92 10:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH> Nope, Terry, the individual proved it.  If other people choose
 BH> not to believe it, that is their choice,

 Yes, but misbelief still doesn't change fact.  Even if there was NO one
 that believed Jesus was the son of God would that make any difference?
 What if no one believes that Rev. Moon is a man of God, would that make
 any difference?   Belief does not change truth.

 BH> After all, the
 BH> Flat Earth Society still survives today.  Why?  Because of their
 BH> reading of the Bible, nothing else.

 It is to their disadvantage.  It is hard to proselytize very far from
 home if you are afraid you are going to fall off the edge of the earth.
 I suppose that leaves a great deal of the earth's population open to the
 rest of us to educate.  Maybe we should tell them that the edge is even
 closer than they think.  It would make our work easier if we reduced
 their sphere of influence.

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Date       03-10-92 11:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Henderson
Subject    Purpose

 BH> But you are assuming that the correct religion HAS a God.  What
 BH> if the only correct religion has no dieties?  Or has 400
 BH> dieties?  Let's not make assumption

 Well, you either assume there IS a God or there is NO God.  I started
 with the assumption that I did not create my self so there must be a
 creator who did it for me.  I'm not equiped to argue about the reality
 of God.  I even believe that if God did not exist we would have to
 create one in order to have an absolute standard or model to follow.
 If everything is left up to man, who changes from day to day, then we
 never would find peace or establish a stable society that is fair to all
 of its citizens.

 >> It is good to be critical, BUT just be careful we don't throw
 >> out the baby with the bath water.

 BH> You are correct.  But before we worry too much about that, let's
 BH> make sure the baby is worth saving.  After all, a philosophy
 BH> founded on a faulty basis
 BH> may not be a worthwhile philosophy after all.

 Right, so we have to first determine if there is indeed a God and then
 discover what that creator is like.

 The fundamental questions about life and the universe cannot be finally
 resolved without understanding the nature of God, the Creator. This is
 so because in order to understand and solve the problems concerning any
 resultant being we must first understand the causal being.  So in order
 to answer the most basic questions about all resultant beings, we must
 first understand the nature of God, the Creator, and the principles by
 which he created the world.  "The Principles of the Creation" explains
 God's nature and these principles, and thus answers the fundamental
 questions about life and the universe.

 How can we know the nature of God, who is invisible?  We can know it
 through observing the Creation.  Just as the work of an artist is a
 visible manifestation of its maker's invisible nature, every being in
 the Creation is a substantial manifestation of the invisible nature of
 God, ivs Creator.  Just as we can sense an author's character through
 his work, so can we perceive God's nature through his Creation.

 For this reason, Paul said,

    Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely,
    his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things
    that have been made.  So they are without excuse.... (Rom 1:20)

 We will determine what God's nature is like by finding the
 characteristics which are common to all entities in his Creation.

      We find that all existing being have both an invisible, internal
 character and a visible, external form.  Internal Character is the inner
 nature or character of any being, whereas External Form is the aspects
 of matter, structure, and shape of any being. For instance, in man,
 simply speaking, Internal Character is the invisible mind and External
 Form is the visible body.  In animals, the invisible instinctual mind is
 the Internal Character, while the tissues and organs forming an animal's
 body are the External Form.  In plants, life and the various invisible
 internal characteristics are its Internal Character whereas the material
 part made up of the cells is its External Form.  The same principle can
 be applied to the Elements.  The physicochemical character of molecules,
 atoms, and particles is their Internal Character, while the visible
 matter and structu re are their External Form.  In man, the mind is the
 subject and motivator of the body; thus the body moves according to the
 direction of the mind.  Likewise, the Internal Characters of animals,
 plants, molecules, atoms, and particles direct and control their
 External Forms.

      The body, which is External Form, reflects and resembles the mind,
 which is Internal Character.  Though the mind cannot be seen, it has its
 own "form", and the body, which reflects and resembles the mind, assumes
 a corresponding form. Mind and body are simply the inner and outer
 aspects of the same person, with the mind being causal and in the
 subject position to the body.  This is the reason one can perceive
 things about a man's mind and destiny by examining his outer appearance.
 From this, we can understand that Internal Character and External Form
 are simply the inner and outer aspects of each being.  Internal
 Character is the causal aspect and stands in the subject position to
 External Form; External Form is the resultant aspect and stands in the
 object position to Internal Character.  Accordingly, External Form may
 also be called the second Internal Character.  Together we call them
 dual characteristics.

 Since God is the First Cause of all beings and each created being has
 dual characteristics of Internal Character and External Form, God must
 have Internal Character and External Form (Rom 1:20).  God's Internal
 Character and External Form are in the subject position to the Internal
 Characters and External Forms of the created beings.  God's Internal
 Character, which is in the subject position to the Internal Characters
 of all created beings, is called the Original Internal Character, and
 his External Form, which is subject to the External Forms of all created
 beings, is called the Original External Form.  It should be emphasized
 that God's Original Internal Character and Original External Form do not
 exist as independent entities, but in harmonious reciprocal relationship
 with one another. God is the subject being of harmonized Original
 Internal Character and Original External Form, and his is the First
 Cause of the resultant world.

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Date       03-10-92 11:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Allen Mitts
Subject     Where Are God'S Gran

 AM>    We're moving into the area of semantics here aren't we?
 AM> Let's just say God can create anything He wants - period.

 Can God create a big rock?   Can God lift a big rock?   Can God create a
 rock so big He can't lift it?    Can God really create anything He wants
 - period. ?????

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Date       03-10-92 14:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Barefield
Subject    Messiah and Jews

 TB> │Were Adam and Eve God during their sinless time period?

 MB> The is only one God.  Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Isreal! The Lord is our
 MB> God, the Lord is one!"

 You still never addressed the question that arises when we read Gen 1:28

 If God's image is male AND female, how can a single man or woman embody
 the total spirit of God.  Seems impossible from a logical point of view.

 TB> │ │Can you show me where Jesus received worship?

 MB> John 20:26-29 Thomas sees the risen Christ for the first time
 MB> and touches His wounds.  Thomas's response "My Lord and my God".
 MB> Jesus did not rebuke him but received his praise and his
 MB> worship.

 We could talk forever about what Jesus did not do, but is that really
 supporting any argument?

 I've hear many people say "My God" aound me quite often,  especially
 when I was playing basketball and amazing the opponents with my superior
 quickness and skills,  BUT I NEVER thought they were worshiping me or
 even calling me their God.

 MB> Jesus not only received their worship but confessed that if men
 MB> would not praise Him that the rocks would praise Him.  I will
 MB> not let a rock take my place, thank you.

 Are you considering praise is the same thing as worship?

 PSA 138:2   I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name
 for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy
 word above all thy name.

 JOH 4:24    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
 [him] in spirit and in truth.

 How can you think Jesus should be worshiped when you read these
 scripture:

 MAT 19:17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is]
 none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
 keep the commandments. MAR 10:18   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest
 thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. LUK 18:19
 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save
 one, [that is], God.

 BTW   You should try to trun off that box quoting.  When another person
 quotes those messages everything gets really confusing.  And the fidonet
 network does not allow those characters that make up the boxes.  I think
 the utility I use takes them out but I'm not sure.

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Date       03-10-92 15:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Barefield
Subject    Perfect

 MB> I certainly believe the Bible teaches that Jesus will return.
 MB> But that has nothing to do with our sin problem.

 Hummm, this is puzzling to me.  I never had anyone tell me that the
 return of Christ would have nothing to do with our "sin problem."

 1JO 3:8  ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
 might destroy the works of the devil.

 Has this purpose been fulfilled or is Satan and evil still working?

 Do you see any evidence of crime and sin where you live?  Do we need the
 Messiah to retrun and show us how to make all things new?

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Date       03-10-92 17:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    God's Children

 TB>But if the marriage of the Lamb does take place between Christ and
  TB>a real woman then you know the rest....

 WC>    The marriage of the Lamb is not to a human woman. I have
 WC> quoted you the pertinent Scripture on a number of occasions. You
 WC> have never address those Scriptures.

 You always twisted the word "bride" to fit your belief.  That's all you
 you have done.   God will decide if His son can marry a real woman, not
 you or me.  I simply don't think any loving father would have their son
 marry an institution.  ESPECIALLY one that resembles a modern church
 congregation.

 WC> TB>first comes marriage then comes Mrs. Messiah pushing a baby
 WC> car- TB>riage !
 WC>    There will be no baby carriage for the simple reason that in
 WC> the resurrection there is no marriage and no children.
 WC> Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor
 WC> are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
 WC>    You say yes the Bible says no. This is a direct

 I don't disagree.  I never disagreed.  You are talking about the first
 resurrection and I am talking about the second resurrection.  Two
 different events.  The first resurrection did not allow marriages.  We
 are now entering the last days and the second resurrection is happening
 right now.   Marriage, in the second resurrection, is the highest form
 of spirituality.   Read for yourself, Christ himself will marry.

 Rev 12:9

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Date       03-10-92 18:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Messiahs

 JS> No, the true second coming will be undeniable, and require no
 JS> "Scriptural test".  The problem is, if we weren't warned ahead
 JS> of time how the Messiah would come, it would be too easy to
 JS> follow a false Messiah, not realized that
 JS> he was really false.

 How could you follow a false messiah if you waited for someone to drop
 out of the clouds.  Your argument has no visible logic.  How many people
 have dropped out of the clouds and claimed to be the messiah.   How many
 people dropped out of the clouds and claimed to be anything?  If that
 was the real way Christ was going to return we would not need any
 warning.

 JS> Unlike the coming of Rev. Moon, the second
 JS> coming of Christ will be unmistake- able and completely
 JS> undeniable.  There will be _no_ doubts.

 I have no doubt.  And neither have those who studied his messages and
 asked God for guidance.  I strongly urge you not to dismiss this issue
 lightly.  If Jesus Christ did indeed anoint Rev. Moon to carry out his
 will in the last days, those who don't understand will not be serving
 Jesus any longer.

 Do you really believe Jesus?  Do you really believe Jesus words?

 Carefully, from the depths of my heart I urge you to read, think and
 pray about our Lord's words.  He was not joking.

 LUK 13:24    Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto
 you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. LUK 13:25   When once
 the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye
 begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord,
 open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not
 whence ye are: LUK 13:26   Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and
 drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. LUK 13:27
 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from
 me, all ye workers of iniquity. LUK 13:28   There shall be weeping and
 gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and
 all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust
 out. LUK 13:29   And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west,
 and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the
 kingdom of God. LUK 13:30   And, behold, there are last which shall be
 first, and there are first which shall be last.

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Date       03-10-92 18:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Moon

 The conclusion of your messages are in a mess by the time they get to
 everyone else.   Did you know that this kind of stuff adds to the cost
 of us sysops who pay the phone company to transfer your messages from
 system to system?

 JS> .-------------------------.
 JS> .--------v---------------------------------------.
 JS> | Jeff Shirton            | | Prov.  | "If you know these
 JS> things, you are  |
 JS> | [e-mail]  | | 30:7-9 |  blessed if you do
 JS> them."--John 13:17
 JS> |
 JS> `-------------------------'
 JS> `--------^---------------------------------------'
 JS> * Origin: The Hyborian BBS Hamilton's SIGnet Host [phone]
 JS> (1:244/121)

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Date       03-11-92 07:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Free Will

 AS> Why was it "misused"?  Perhaps due to some drive (sexual) that
 AS> was generated by evolution.

 Evolution does not "generate."  Evolution is the external 'appearance'
 of some internal unseen driving force of conscious.   In other words the
 evolution of the horse and buggy into a Mercedes did not take place
 through random mutations, rather an external driving force of thought
 was "input" into the system.   This is the evolutionist's category
 blunder.  They fail to recognize this conscious input into the system
 they are observing.  They see the effect but not the cause.

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Date       03-11-92 07:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Free Will

 individual TB> level, but we also must love other TB> families more than
 our own family, we TB> must love other nations more than our own nation.

 AS> All of these traits are governed by biology (instincts, evolution).
 I suggest AS> studying sociobiology in order to understand why we do
 what we AS> do and what obstacles stand in the way of our becoming what
 we AS> want to become.

 We should consider an example of the fall of a society like the Roman
 empire and ask if sociobiology could have prevented or possibly have
 caused this once great empire to collapse.   How do you suppose
 sociobiology could have prevented such an "evolution" ?

 AS> When under only moderate stress, the survival of AS> the tribe is
 best served with a cooperative attitude.  When AS> under high stress
 (drought, famine), "greed" AS> helps at least a few members survive
 whereas otherwise all would AS> likely die.

 The fall of the Roman empire took place during a time of plenty.

 AS> We are currently
 AS> under relatively high stress due to overpopulation (especially
 AS> compared to several thousand years ago).

 One only feels "overpopulated" when they are among people they do not
 love.  If all the people on earth were loving and serving you do you
 think the world would need a few more people?

 AS> (It does.)), etc.). TB> The model for an ideal society is found
 AS> in the human body.  The TB> individual parts of your body exist
 AS> for the sake of the whole body. No
 AS> TB> part of a healthy body would insist on giving itself
 AS> priority.  If a TB> group of cells resisted the impulse and
 AS> direction of the central nervous
 AS> TB> system and started growing according to their own purpose we
 AS> would call TB> this cancer and cut them out.
 AS> The difference is that, once we become relatively
 AS> self-sufficient, we are no longer dependent on others as parts
 AS> of the body are dependent on other parts of the body.

 No man is an island...

 AS> they start expressing seekig personal possessions.  What you
 AS> seek is what is the natural state of man, as expressed by
 AS> primitive tribes - it is not something new to be acquired - it
 AS> is ours already.

 Yes, we all want to get back to the Garden.

 AS> The problem is finding out what it is that
 AS> naturally compels man to leave that state and become greedy.  (I
 AS> think it is our reaction to "anxiety"when it is induced by other
 AS> individuals in the same tribe.)

 Yes, selfish people do induce problems, but why do people become
 selfish?  Who gave this instinct to man?   What is the cure?
 Historically,  humans have looked to religion for answers to the woes of
 society and solution for the problems of the inner man. When religion
 fails, some members of society start to oppress and dominate the weaker,
 then a radical solution is sought.  We have seen this take place, and
 the radical solution that was tired was communism.  Through violence and
 force, people tried to take back the power and material possessions that
 they felt they had lost.  The motivating force was hatred.  But that
 system of reform failed miserably at the cost of 5 million human lives.

 Someone should be smart enough to realize that when man is at the
 center, we are doomed to suffer and decline.  What society has tried to
 place God at the center?   When America was founded, everything was
 first dedicated and offered to God.  Our political leaders knelt in
 prayer before they met.  We opened our arms to the poor downtrodden
 masses and gave a large portion of our wealth and blessings to the rest
 of the world.  Did that make America decline?  Of course not.  God
 blessed America and this country rose to become the wealthiest nation in
 the history of the world.  The more we gave, the more we sacrificed, the
 more we were blessed.

 Then what happened?  America closed its doors to the poor downtrodden
 masses, decided to stay at home and keep those blessings to ourselves.
 When we focused inward our families began breaking apart at an alarming
 rate.  The backbone of the society, the family, became ill. Then drugs,
 alcohol and immorality filled the void.   No one has really discovered
 the universal principle that Rev. Moon is teaching.   That principle
 says that if you support the larger purpose you will increase, but if
 you support the smaller purpose you will decline.

 If you read a small booklet called "God's Warning to the World" that was
 Rev. Moon's message from prison, you will have the opportunity to
 understand what I'm talking about in greater detail.  The American
 government tried to push Rev. Moon down and destroy him, yet he came
 right out of prison and went to the Soviet Union and met with Gorbechev
 and opened a way for thousands and thousands of soviet students to
 participate in religious seminars.   Then he went and was warmly
 welcomed by Kim Il San, the North Korean dictator who had put him in a
 concentration camp to be worked to death when he was young.   Rev. Moon
 opened up a way that North and South Koreans could reunite with their
 family members they had not seen in 40 years.  Rev. Moon clearly proved
 that if a person lives for the sake of the world, the universal
 principle of living for the greater purpose will lift you up.

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Date       03-11-92 08:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Free Will

 AS> We are talking about two different kinds of freedom.  The
 AS> freedom you are talking about is the freedom a person has
 AS> relative to society, but the person
 AS> must often restrict his own freedom in order not to have this
 AS> "social freedom" taken from him by society.  He has to lose portions
 AS> of this freedom to retain his social freedom.

 You are correct, but how can we convince people to give up individual,
 personal freedom for the sake of the whole world?  That is the reason
 the world is not a nice place to live.

 TB> If you are driving to a destination you will never get there if you
 TB> do not maintain control over your car the entire way. The problem we
 TB> have to deal with is to recognize that these "suppressed instincts"
 TB> are NOT our original nature.  We have been infected with an abnormal
 TB> instinct.

 AS> According to sociobiologists, this is because those with only a
     loving nature perished in competition with those who had at least a
     trace of greed.  In this sense, it is an "abnormal" instinct, but it
     enabled our species to survive (at the expense of other tribes and
     other species competing for the same food supply).

 It does seem the good die young.  However, there will come a time when
 evil will loose its power to destroy God's side of goodness.  Take the
 example of Jesus.  Satan thought he had destroyed Jesus but Jesus was
 resurrected and found more faith and support than he ever found while he
 was alive.  The thing we have to know is God's formula for victory over
 evil.  I think this best sums it up:

 ROM 12:21   Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 MAT 5:38    Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and
 a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
 whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
 also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat,
 let him have [thy] cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a
 mile, go with him twain.

 TB> This is why Jesus and John said that fallen man was
 TB> of their father the Devil.  There must be a cure for this sickness.

 AS> Selective breeding?

 You can call it that, but purification is way the Bible expresses it.

 TB> If there is such a thing as the Messiah, he will have to come TB> as
 a doctor and administer some "medicine" to cure fallen man. Just
 remember when a doctor give you medicine it usually tastes awful and/or
 we often have to drop our pants and take it in an embarrassing place.
 Do you want the Messiah's medicine?   You and I need it.

 AS> What is the Messiah's medicine?

 Truth and Love.
 The Divine Principle contains the truth.  Do you have a copy?

 TB> We have to realize that the purpose for our creation was not decided
 by TB> ourselves.  If we are to ever gain happiness we must live withing
 the TB> boundaries of the purpose for which we were created.

 AS> I do not agree with your implied assumption that we AS> were created
 for a purpose. AS> Perhaps we were, but there seems to be no convincing
 evidence to AS> say that we were.

 We have to really, closely examine this question.  Does man create for
 no reason?  Does man do anything for no reason?  Everything we do, we
 hope to gain emotional satisfaction from our actions/creation.  Where
 did that come from?  Is it a fallen/evil nature to seek happiness or did
 we inherit that desire from our creator.   I think God created man and
 the universe to fulfill His own emotional desire/need for joy.
      Why do you think the universe and eventually humans would appear
 from raw energy?  Can such an event be satisfactorily explained in your
 mind as a coincidental happening?

 TB> This may appear to be "restrictive" for those who have broken the
   rules... and everyone has violated the purpose for which we were
   created.   However, we must come to a point we intellectually
   understand the rules and the results of violating spiritual law.  In
   the end we have to reach a point that we emotionally HATE sin. It is
   not simple.  If you find a way to hate sin please let us know.

 AS> Your assumptions are that we have spiritual rules; that we have
 AS> broken them; and that, if they did exist, there are consequences for
 AS> breaking them.

 Exactly my position.  The more "evolved" among our species always notice
 things others tend to ignore. <Grin>

 AS> I think it is not necessary to hate "sin;" but only to
 AS> understand why we want to do the things that sometimes hurt
 AS> other people.  This is where sociobiolcan help.

 There are many things that can help.  We must begin by locating the
 problem, the common enemy, that is the root of crime, sin, suffering and
 unhappiness.
 What do sociobiologist see that needs fixing?  Is the inner man the
 problem?  Can the inner man be fixed by changing society?   Is this the
 same idea that communism experimented with for over 70 years?

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Date       03-11-92 09:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Free Will

 TB> Let me try to pen you down.  In your last message you

 AS> The pen is mightier than the pin?  :-)

 Freudian slip   :-)

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Date       03-11-92 09:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Free Will

 AS>  We will do whatever is determined by our history and present
 AS>  (material, mental, and "spiritual") circumstances.

 Not always.  History has a record of thousands, even millions of people
 who did something extraordinary.  Those people, we call saints, as well
 as those we call traitors, took actions that were incongruent with their
 "present" circumstances. That influences the rest of us.  If we can see
 someone else set a record or break a goal then our thinking changes.
 When we believe something is possible, we then begin to see a way to do
 it.

 Look at the history of the world record for running the mile.  Scientist
 said it was impossible for a human to break a 4 minute mile.  They
 offered all kinds of "proof" about the inadequacies of the human
 respiratory, circulatory and muscular system.  But one day a man did run
 a mile in under 4 minutes and within a year 16 other people also broke
 the 4 minute mile.  Why could so many people break this previously
 believed "impossible" limitation immediately after one person did it?



 I have to congradulate you on your messages.  They do more to inspire me
 to think about "real" things than ALL those wasted messages about the
 trinity and the virgin birth and messiah's falling out of the sky.

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Date       03-11-92 09:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    Jesus' knowledge

 TB> Looks like you may be a Jw?   Nothing wrong with that, just curious

 VR> I'm not.

 Sorry to miscatagorize you.  I thought I spotted someting unique to the
 Jw position.

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Date       03-11-92 09:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Savage
Subject     SATAN

 RS>     "Unfortunately, current ideas upon the subject are astray
 RS> from the Bible.
 RS>     "It is taught that the devil is a superhuman monster, a
 RS> fallen angel, who dominates the minds of humanity, including
 RS> mankind to sin.  The teaching
 RS> induces fear of the devil, and also provides an excuse for sin
 RS> by blaming it on him.....
 RS>
 RS>
 RS>     "But if the devil is not a fallen angel, but a synonym for
 RS> human nature in its various forms.  Then the Bible teaches that
 RS> we are responsible for the sins we commit,  and proclaims the
 RS> means whereby sin can be forgiven, and human nature
 RS> controlled.  This is essential for the salvation of each one.

 I can assure you that according to the Bible,  Satan is NOT simply a
 poetic name for the impersonal fact of evil.    If you really want to
 know about Satan, you should read "Man in God's World ( 1967 ) by Helmut
 Thielicke.

 RS>     The bottom line is that the supernatural devil doctrine
 RS> gives man a scape-goat to blame his sins on..."the devil made me
 RS> do it."...   But when we destroy the supernatural devil doctrine
 RS> we will come that much closer to discovering
 RS> the true cause of our sin, human nature.  If the devil made you
 RS> do it, there
 RS> would be no need to repent because you would not be guilty of
 RS> the sin, just an innocent victim of the devil.

 It doesn't matter who "made" you do it, God gave man the responsibility.
 If someone tries to claim that devil made me do it, they wouldn't repent
 even if they knew otherwise.  The reason people don't repent is because
 we don't hate sin.   Our mind is not strongly connected to God and even
 if it was, it is still dominated by our bodies.  Rather than our body
 obeying our mind, we have been running around seeking pleasures to
 stimulate and satisfy our bodies selfish desires.   Sin is a result of
 weakness.  Weak minds are dominated by fleshly desires.

 ROM 7:22    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
 ROM 7:23    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
 of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in
 my members.

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Date       03-11-92 09:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Savage
Subject     SATAN

 RS>     "We have found the enemy, and he is US."  <Unknown>

 See my message to that other fellow you left the same comment to.

 I cannot agree more that the enemy is US.  But how did we get in this
 situation?  We need to understand what role Lucifer, Satan, has played
 in seducing man to carry out his will.  If we want to break free from
 the influence of evil then we need to know what part of "us" that needs
 to be circumcised, AND how to go about doing it.    When your body
 complains, it means that Satan is complaining.  What does your body hate
 to do?  Sacrifice for others.  Why?  Because Satan's m.o. is to
 sacrifice others for himself.

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Date       03-11-92 12:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Paul Thompson
Subject    A JW growing up. Let  3/

 PT>  Yes, Debi's letter is real, and her experience occurs all over the
 PT> world as I write.

 First this sad letter wasn't written by a little girl. It was written by
 a grownup that harbored resentment because they did not have a birthday
 party or get christmas presents.   For that reason we should keep these
 kind of "testimonies" in perspective.   I'm sure we can easily see the
 splinter in the eye of any religious faith.  We can complain about the
 way it is being run, but can we see both sides?   Compare her experience
 to one of growing up in a family environment where your parents are
 running around "whoring" and beating you up when they get their daily
 intoxication.

 Where does this faith in God, that you are proud to have, come from? Was
 it not installed by your parents?  I'm am absolutely SURE it was NOT a
 politician nor business man that taught you that God loves you.

 If you think your lifestyle as a child of a Jw was living hell, then you
 haven't looked around at what most children are really facing.  Were you
 hungry, cold, beaten or sexually abused?

 I once complained because I had no shoes till I saw a man with no feet.

 We do need to 'reform' many practices that religions should not be
 following.  It is a mistake not to give blood to save someone's life.
 And events like Easter, Christmas, and one's birthday should be
 recognized.   I heard a comedian mention that we had changed the day we
 celebrate some of our president's birthdays, but they noted there is one
 birthday we don't mess around with.  That one belongs to Jesus. Then he
 said do you imagine how Jesus would respond when he returns and finds
 out that you changed his birthday?   He would say "You did WHAT?" "I
 died for your sins and you changed my birthday?" Might he have the same
 feelings for someone who ignored it too?

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Date       03-11-92 12:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Angels                1/

 WC>    Similarly, when the Bible says God came to earth or appeared
 WC> to a man, it does not negate His omnipresence.

 That is exactly my point.  Jesus was not able to totally contain God.
 Even if God had abandoned his omnipresence, He still at most could only
 fit His masculine half into a man.  What could God do with the feminine
 nature?   I tell you plainly and clearly and truthfully God can only
 dwell fully in a Marriage.  For that reason we are awaiting the marriage
 of the Lamb.  That marriage is the hope of humanity, and blessed will be
 those who attend that marriage.  The greatest blessing in all history is
 to be living on earth when that blessing takes place, but it is the
 lowest point in any individual's existence if they miss it.

 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will
 seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the
 house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand
 without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and
 he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then
 shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou
 hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not
 whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall
 be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac,
 and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you
 [yourselves] thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and [from]
 the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down
 in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first,
 and there are first which shall be last.

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Date       03-11-92 12:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Justice

 WC> TB>Why didn't the resurrection of Moses and Elijah make them a
 WC> messi- TB>ah?
 WC>    Because they were not God. Neither were they the only
 WC> begotten Son of God.

 You did a nice job chopping up the original message.  The original
 message was discussing the idea that Jesus was resurrected, overcoming
 death, making that the MOST important part of his ministry.  I agreed
 that the resurrection was the most important part of his ministry but
 went on to point out that before Jesus was resurrected Moses and Elijah
 and already been seen in a resurrected, 'living' state.   It was not a
 hallucination shared by several people at the same time.

 I expect better quality work from you Walter.

 Date       03-08-92 18:36:00
 From       Sysop
 To         Jud Phillips
 Subject    Justice

  JP> The most important part of the ministry of Christ on earth was
   JP> not his crucifixion (thought you will hear that in Western
    JP> theology). The most important part was that he rose from the
     JP> dead, thus destroying the curse of death.

  Jesus resurrection was the victory.  However, let's not forget that
  both Moses and Elijah were seen and apparently resurrected a few days
  earlier. Did they not overcome death also?

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Date       03-11-92 13:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Marriage of the Lamb

 WC> TB> Has the work of the devil been destroyed?   Why must Christ
 WC> TB>return?
 WC> WC>    He will come back to bring Israel into the fold.
 WC> TB>It appears your answer is "no" the work of Christ is NOT
 WC> finished.    To the contrary, Terry. The redemptive work is
 WC> finished. The price has been paid. Redemption and salvation is
 WC> available to all who will. The Second Advent will see the
 WC> fulfillment of the promises which God made to Israel which have
 WC> yet to be fulfilled.

 Then the whole deal isn't finished is it?  If you go to Benson Mercedes
 and flop down about $80,000 for a used car but go home in your old one,
 the deal isn't finished till you return and pick up.

 I wonder who got the idea that Jesus' death paid the price for all sins,
 past, present and FUTURE?  Most likely it was someone who still has
 plans to keep on sinning.

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Date       03-11-92 13:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Philip Brown
Subject    MEDIATOR

 PB>     A mediator should be a person who is impartial to both
 PB> sides. This can be accomplished by the person being associated
 PB> with neither side, or being associated with *BOTH* sides-- so
 PB> that he can act as an impartial judge for both sides.
 PB>     Even though Jesus was not a *sinful* man, he was a man.
 PB> There is no reason for a mediator to have to have participated
 PB> in the criminal activities of one of the sides in order to
 PB> mediate for them.  Since we both agree that Jesus was a man, and
 PB> we both agree that it would be wrong for Jesus to be "man"
 PB> without being God, then Jesus must be God also.

 ...some food for thought...

 So if a black man and a white man have a dispute the Judge cannot render
 an impartial decision unless he is the child of an interracial marriage?

 What if the complaintif was 70 years old and the defendant was 20?  How
 could you find a Judge that was BOTH young and old?


 I recognize that it is difficult for a white man to see a black man's
 point of view, and likewise it is difficult for a black man to see a
 white man's point of view, so the best person to decide such a decision
 should be NEITHER black or white, they should be Yellow, Brown, or
 Red... if we can only find a yellow, brown or red man that the White man
 has not shown prejudice toward.


 Maybe Jesus was NEITHER God nor man?  He certainly was like no man that
 anyone had ever met before.

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Date       03-11-92 13:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiah

 WC> TB>Are you looking for a way to serve Christ, or are you waiting
 WC> on TB>Jesus to come back and do something for you?

 WC> We are instructed to watch while we wait and to toil while we watch

 No need to wait any longer.  HE Came !

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Date       03-11-92 13:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiahs

 TB>Your religion places all responsibility on God.

 WC>    In what way do you think my doctrine places all the
 WC> responsibili- ty on God? I have stated over and over that God
 WC> will hold man respon- sible for his actions and judge him
 WC> accordingly.

 Why then don't you establish the kingdom of God on earth so Jesus can
 retire when he comes back?    We can then have two holidays:  Jesus'
 birthday, and the day he gets his gold watch and leaves to go fishing.

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Date       03-11-92 13:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         David Ballard
Subject     Moon

 DB> This is a coincidence; have a look-see at FAITH & REASON by
 DB> Ronald Nash (Zondervan Publishing House).....a man of critical
 DB> thinking can appreciate it.

 It would help to know specifically why you say "This is coincidence."

 I'm writing about 20 messages a day and many of them lead me into
 researching the Bible as well as the Divine Principle and many of the
 1,000's of speeches Rev. Moon has delivered.  This requires a great deal
 of time.   If you can be quote a portion of the message your are
 replying to, I may get lucky and recall what we were talking about.

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Date       03-11-92 13:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moon

 WC> Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN THE
 WC> CLOUDS with great POWER AND GLORY.
 WC>    That IS what the Bible says. Why do you say that God was
 WC> lying to us in the above passages?

 Oh, I never hinted that God was lying, that is in your imagination.  I
 have always maintained that you misinterpreted what God meant.  Clouds
 are purified waters and waters are multitudes of fallen people.  Clouds
 must therefore be purified people of faith.   Hebrews verifies this by
 saying that Christ will be surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses" when he
 returns.  I can't make it any simpler that that.  You may as well
 forget about looking up... all you are ever going to find is a stiff
 neck.

 You should know better.  What will you do about the lack of oxygen,
 food, water, the required atmospheric pressure to keep your body from
 exploding, AND the forces of gravity that keep the rest of us from
 flying away with you in the event you really levitated into the
 stratosphere. This is the most irrational, illogical, idea anyone has
 ever had.  How can you, a scientist, buy into such a fantasy? Please
 don't tell me you really think you may float away to some mystical
 place.

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Date       03-11-92 13:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Paul Thompson
Subject    Opps, Need New Light

 PT> "Jehovah's angel fortold further agressions by the Communist
 PT> king of the north before his end in Armageddon." -p. 300
 PT> However, the Communist empire has collapsed and  the dissolution
 PT> of the Soviet Union  has already occured!   Perhaps it is time
 PT> to read Duet. 18:22.
 PT> Christianity is not falling as predicted by the Watchtower
 PT> either.  It is growing in the new Commonwealth of Independent
 PT> States and other so-called Eastern Bloc nations.

 I have to inform you that you are making a big mistake.  Armageddon
 began like the Watchtower predicted. And christianity is/has failed !
 The mission of christianity was to support Christ but like the chosen
 Israelite people 2,000 years ago they did not recognize his coming.

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Date       03-11-92 13:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Religion

 WC>    Which Christians did this? Your words certainly give every
 WC> indi- cation that you do not know what a true Christian is.

 That's an understatement !  Where can I go to find one?

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Date       03-11-92 14:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Religion

 WC>    True Christians have always supported the true man of God.

 Your theology is getting weaker every day.  Let me see if I can help an
 aging fallacy:

 ACS 7:51    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
 always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. Which
 of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain
 them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have
 been now the betrayers and murderers:

 TB>They sat back and watched Rev. Moon try to save America and they
 TB>did nothing but get it the way.

 WC>    On the other hand they knew the tree by the fruit it
 WC> produced. Certainly a man of God will not contradict the
 WC> Scripture. God does not contradict Himself and He certainly does
 WC> not authorize the man of God to say that which contradicts the
 WC> written word.

 How quickly you forget that Christ was nearly stoned early in his
 ministry for violating the sabbath and contradicting the law of Moses.

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Date       03-11-92 14:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Testing

 TB>Your view of God is unlike a parent.  Do wait on your children to
 TB>come to visit so you can pass out the F's and pass judgement?
 TB>Why would anyone want to visit such a God? Why do you want to
 TB>visit such a creature?  Either God is not like this or He will
 TB>forever remain lonely and NEVER realize love.

 WC> What does all this have to do with the subject under
 WC> discussion? We were not discussing God as a parent. We were
 WC> discussing God testing people.

 God is our parent and a parent does not test their children.  A parent
 loves their children.  They don't look for an "excuse" to pass out
 judgment.  Love doesn't work like that between parents and children, and
 that is the EXACT relationship God wants with man.  Don't you want to
 know God is your Father?   Or do you want a God who is going to reward
 you and kick the rest of us into hell?

 WC> It cannot even be truthfully stated at all are
 WC> God's children. You give the appearance of being unable to make
 WC> up your mind on this. You have on a number of occasions quoted
 WC> the verse stating that some have the devil as father. Yet you
 WC> then turn around and insist that God is their Father. Which is
 WC> correct? Is God the Father of all? If so then was Jesus lying
 WC> when He that some had Satan as a father?

 We all are born as children of the devil BUT our True Father is God.  So
 we have two fathers.  One is a false father who abducted and kidnapped
 us at the fall of man.  We have been searching for our True Father ever
 since that day and our True Father has been searching for us.

 There are times I talk about our current situation, relationship with
 the devil and times I talk about our destiny as true children of God.
 You should be wise enough to distinguish between the ideal and the
 reality.

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Date       03-11-92 14:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Misty Rich
Subject    Well,...

 MR> I tried to read some messages but obviously no one ever leaves
 MR> messages to ALL, who I happen to be righnow, so I'm hurt I don't
 MR> know what everyone on this board talks to each other about but
 MR> I'd really apriciate talking to another Christian for a change,
 MR> that is me and most
 MR> of my friends (who talk on the BBS) don't talk about GO.

 What "flavor" of christianity are you looking for?   I'm with the
 Unification Church, a follower of Rev. Sun Myung.   There are Jehovah's
 Witnesses, Mormons, Pentecostals, Catholics, Greek Orthodox,  a few
 Bible evangelist that don't quite have a background yet, some agnostics,
 and atheist, .... all talking at each other.   So just chime in and make
 a nitch for yourself.   If you let us know where you are coming from, we
 can more easily cure your problmes.  <grin>

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Date       03-11-92 21:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     ?

 PM> CR> A soul is a living creature. Whether it be animals or
 PM> humans.
 PM> CR> A soul is not seperate from the body. Of course a dead body,
 PM> would CR> not be a soul. When God created Adam, it was only when
 PM> he breathed CR> the breath of life into him, that he BECAME a
 PM> soul. He was'nt given
 PM> CR> one.
 PM>
 PM>    This Scriptural view needs stressing.               phil

 He also failed to notice that God only breathed his spirit into man.  So
 the idea that animals have a soul is a misconception.

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Date       03-11-92 21:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Fundamentalist

 PM> TB> Jesus Christ was the True son of God.  He was born sinless
 PM> and grew TB> up to be the spiritual savior and true father of
 PM> all mankind.  He died TB> for the sins of faithless of the
 PM> world.    Hardly one of "the boys." TB> Hardly like you and I.
 PM>
 PM>    Well, He *had* to be sufficienly like us, in order to
 PM>    be tempted "in all points like we are", wouldn't yu say?

 So you don't belong to the Jesus is God crowd ?   Don't pull him down
 too low though !

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Date       03-11-92 21:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Marriage of the Lamb

 PM> WC>    He will come back to bring Israel into the fold.

 TB> It appears your answer is "no" the work of Christ is NOT
     finished.

 PM>    Since we are told that HE "ever liveth to make intercession
 PM>    for us", it's perfectly clear He is still working on our
 PM>    behalf.
 PM>    What has been perfectly finished, is the Sacrifice, not the
 PM>    full Atonement.
 PM>    Are you able to agree with this, Walter?             phil

 I agree. That is what I've been trying to get Walter to understand.  He
 seems to think we are already living in the kingdom of God.

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Date       03-11-92 21:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Marriage of the Lamb

 PM>       Sorry, I sent my reply to Terry, by mistake.

 It was no mistake.  God wants Me and You to help Walter see the work of
 Christ is not finished.  You are doing a good job. Keep it up.

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Date       03-11-92 21:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    Satan

 SH> RS>we dispell the boogie-man and marry the Word of God with
 SH> reality.   Then I suppose that Christ being tempted in the
 SH> wilderness was also   a "fable??"
 SH>   One of Satan's biggest, and best tricks is to simply get
 SH> people to   believe that he doesn't exist.

 Without appearing too overtly zealous let me calmly say:  That's the way
 to tell him !

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Date       03-11-92 21:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Where Are God'S GraG

 PM> TB> Remember you can never have too much eternal life insurance.
 PM> TB>
 PM> Well.... I thought that was digital.  You got it or you ain't.

 Yes, you can also be on a winning super bowl team... even as the water
 boy or as the star quarterback.

 JOH 14:2    In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not
 [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 2CO 12:2    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in
 the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
 knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 MAT 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
 with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his
 works.

 PM>    The Christians present wages may not compare well, but his
 PM>    retirement benefits are most certainly spendid!

 If you want to talk about low pay, we will have to start another
 conference to handle that volume of messages.

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Date       03-11-92 21:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Why

 PM>  All of us should remember that computers don't think
 PM>  We only *think* they think.   (I think!)                phil

 How true !   The problem with my computer is it does what I tell it to
 do, not what I want it to do...  but that is still %50 better than my
 wife...  she does neither!   <grin>

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Date       03-12-92 21:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     ANYTHING

 PM>    I'm glad you and I can see our sins.

 Well both God and I really rather there were none to see.

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Date       03-12-92 21:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Pedro Vega
Subject    Creed of the People of Go

 I suppose I need to post my creed.

 Well it is not our creed, but it is our determination to do God's will.
 This is the pledge we recite to God at 5 am the first day of the week
 and the first day of the month and the first day of the year (God's Day)
 and on 3 other holy holidays; Parents Day, Children's day, and Day of
 all Things ).


                              My Pledge

 1.  As the center of the cosmos, I fulfill our Father's will and the
 responsibility given me.  I will become a dutiful son/daughter and a
 child of goodness attending our Father forever in the ideal world of
 creation by returning joy and glory to Him. This I pledge.


 2.  I take upon myself completely the Will of God to give me the whole
 creation as my inheritance.  He has given me His word, His personality,
 and His heart, and is reviving me who had died, making me one with HIm
 and His true child. To do this, our Father has persevered for 6,000
 years the sacrificial way of the cross.  This I Pledge.


 3.  As a true son, I follow our Father's pattern and charge bravely
 forward into the enemy camp, until I have judged them completely with
 the weapons with which He has been defeating the enemy Satan for me
 throughout the course of history, by sowing sweat for earth, tears for
 man, and blood for heaven, as a servant but with a father's heart, in
 order to restore His children and the universe lost to Satan.  This I
 pledge.


 4.  The individual, family, society, nation, world, and cosmos who are
 willing attend our Father, the source of peace, happiness, freedom and
 all ideals, will fulfill the ideal world of one heart in one body by
 restoring their original nature.  To do this, I will become a true
 son, returning joy and satisfaction to our Father, and as our Father's
 representative, I will transfer to the creation peace, happiness,
 freedom, and all ideals in the world of the heart.  This I pledge.

 5.  I am proud of the one Sovereignty, proud of the one people, proud of
 the one land, proud of the one language and culture centered upon God,
 proud of being the child of the One True Parent, proud of the family who
 is to inherit one tradition, proud of being a laborer who is working to
 establish the one world of the heart.

 I fight with my life.
 I will be responsible for accomplishing my duty and mission.
 This I pledge and swear.

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Date       03-12-92 21:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Wagner
Subject    Disobedience

 MW> I "love the entire cosmos, including God". Does this mean I'm
 MW> the Messiah?

 No, you also have to restore the True Family of God and parent sinless
 children and totally eliminate Satan's influence over fallen man, then
 you can qualify for the title.   In the meantime, you can be a John the
 Baptist figure and make straight the way of the Lord.  Let's just hope
 you do a better job so the Lord doesn't go straight to the cross when he
 appears again.

 Your destiny is to become the messiah of your family, clan and lineage.
 If you don't do it they will be lost.

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Date       03-12-92 21:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Wagner
Subject    Disobedience

 MW> I believe Christians should vote for Christian candidates. There
 MW> is no doubt
 MW> that Christians are to do good and promote the general good of
 MW> mankind. We are to love our enemies as well as our friends.
 MW> However there is a faction of Christians
 MW> today who believe it is their duty to take control of the
 MW> governments to the point of establishing the Mosiac Law as a
 MW> worldwide theocracy. These people call themselves
 MW> "Reconstructionists." Jesus never told us to spend our time
 MW> primarily trying to revamp this world system. It cannot be done
 MW> until Jesus comes personality.

 MAT 28:19    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...

 What can we suppose Jesus intended his followers to teach?

 JOH 13:34   A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
 as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
 JOH 15:9    As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue
 ye in my love.
 JOH 15:12   This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have
 loved you.

 Is it really loving the world to allow Satan to dominate every area of
 our society?  Is it loving your children to ignore them, letting them
 make up their own minds about morality?

 MW> Mankind, including mortal Christians, are not capable of
 MW> governing the creation
 MW> in righteousness. Only resurrected, glorifed, (GOD-ified if you
 MW> will), being can rule
 MW> the planet. We must wait for the Lord's time.

 And let the devil and his heathenistic cure run thing till then?  I
 can't believe a thinking person would come to such a conclusion.  The
 problem is that we we look back at the history of Christianity, we have
 to agree with you that christians are not capable of governing in
 righteousness.  Do you realize how sad and broken hearted this must make
 their Father?   We have only one choice, to try harder.  Love more, and
 sacrifice more.  If we don't our children will surely be recruited by
 the opposition.


 MW> The apostles asked
 MW> Jesus if he would "restore the kingdom." His answer was not "why
 MW> don't you go and take over Rome." But rather, "it's none of your
 MW> business; but the Father's"

 I don't think he really said that. He said he didn't know then he said
 go ye unto all nations and teach them.  Then he said love others as he
 had loved them.  He gave his life for them, as well as his enemies.
 Christianity forgot this completely within a few centuries and went on
 crusades to do the opposite.

 TB> Will "we" just sit around and sing 'When we Gather by the River?"
 TB> No. I have met the Messiah and he is like the toughest coach you
 TB> will ever met.

 MW> Jesus said that many false prophet would come saying, 'I am the
 MW> Messiah.'
 MW> He also said that he would be coming like lightning flashing
 MW> from the east to the west. He would also be coming in the clouds
 MW> with his holy angels. Does your messiah fit this descriptions?

 Yes he came from the east, Korea to the West, America, in an airplane
 from the clouds and I swear there are a host of angels that go with him
 everywhere.   I tell you this is the man that Jesus has appointed to
 restore the kingdom of God on earth.  If you deeply ask God you can get
 confirmation.

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Date       03-12-92 22:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     God's Children

 PM>    It would appear that Walter has a point.
 PM>
 PM>    Do you see your own contradiction?

 No,  I'm filled with the Spirit.   My higher guide has shown me that
 Walter is the one with contradictions in his interpretation of
 scripture.  Should I listen to Walter or to the Holy Spirit which has
 filled my soul?

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Date       03-12-92 22:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     HOLY SPIRIT

 PM> TB> I surely feel Christ's crucifixion was a major mistake.
 PM>
 PM>    Thank you Almighty God, that Jesus' Sacrifice DID occur,
 PM>    once-for-all,    and need not be repeated on any altar...

 I would rather be thanking the Jewish people for believing in Jesus and
 allowing him to marry and adopt my ancestors into his family.  Had they
 become adopted in to Jesus family, who know, they may have been blessed
 in marriage by their father.  If Christ blessed them in marriage, I
 sorta feel that it would be ok with God.  If they had been blessed in
 marriage by God, it would be most difficult for Satan to hold any claim
 on their children.  I would have had a few hundred generations of
 sinless ancestors in my lineage already and the thought of rebirth would
 been forgotten long ago.  I would have been born right the first time,
 into the kingdom of God.  Yes, I would have liked to thank God that the
 Jewish people followed Jesus and allowed him to continue his work.

 What are your descendants going to say about your response to the second
 coming of Christ?  Will they still be seeking rebirth?  Or will you make
 the right decision when you have the opportunity to be adopted into the
 Messiah's family.   All this time christians have been worrying about
 their own personal salvation, and haven't give much thought about their
 future generations.

 PM>    There's not one thing wrong with me praying for you,
 PM>    however, that the Spirit of God may bless...

 Your prayers and those of others on this conference are the reason I
 continue to stay and try my best to represent and explain the the New
 Revelation from God to my minister Rev. Sun Myung Moon.  God hears you
 and wants me to tell you He loves you deeply and that you will soon be
 overpowered by the Holy Spirit. Then you will see and understand the
 things He has guided me to share with you.   Keep reading. The more you
 know the easier it will be for you to understand and be guided.

 The spiritual world is changing rapidly from day to day. This
 accelerated activity was predicted to come about in the last days in the
 Book of Joel and again in Acts:

 JOE 2:28     And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out
 my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall
 prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see
 visions:
 ACS 2:17    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I
 will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
 daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your
 old men shall dream dreams:


 Have you had any dreams or visions lately?

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Date       03-12-92 22:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Messiah and Jews

 PM>   I "must" admit that your line of reasoning is
 PM>   very interesting.  That means I'll be saving
 PM>   to disc, many of your posts.

 If you want ALL of my messages, call my bbs.  I have been saving them
 for nearly a year.  They are saved in plain ascii, and only messages
 FROM me are packaged. They are zipped and prepared for download.  You
 can get any of them on the first call, or if you send me your address
 and about 2 bucks ( to show your sincerity ) <grin> I will copy them for
 your "hacking" pleasure.  According to my rough calculations there is
 just over a meg, so if you have an hst modem and call at 38,400 baud you
 should get them ALL in 10 to 12 minutes.    Here is the list:

 02-16-92.ZIP   62,418
 05-13-91.ZIP   92,657
 06-01-91.ZIP  122,497
 06-15-91.ZIP  132,548
 07-01-91.ZIP   94,512
 08-01-91.ZIP  131,622
 09-01-91.ZIP  100,382
 10-01-91.ZIP   73,700
 10-17-91.ZIP   92,899
 11-01-91.ZIP   87,563
 12-01-91.ZIP   77,863
 12-16-91.ZIP   79,875

 I will also include a copy of the Divine Principle.  Almost all my
 direct Divine Principle posts were edited out of these files listed
 above.

 Terry Blount
 207 N. Cumberland
 Metairie, La. 70003



 Reply immediately, I don't know how long this offer can continue. <grin>

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Date       03-12-92 22:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject        THE GREAT CONTROVROVE

 TB> So why do we believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the only person that
 TB> was able to resist sin?   If estimations are correct that over 25
 TB> billion people have lived, doesn't it seem rather unlikely that if
 TB> everyone were born like Christ he would be the ONLY one to resist
 sin? TB>

 PM>    Ah yes.  Jesus is certainly unique.  No problem with that.

 Did you go to school to learn to dance or did it just come natural?

 Care to respond to the question?

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Date       03-12-92 22:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Williams
Subject      Trinity Explained

 JW> Umm...I think we agree withh each other.  Check and see again.
 JW> I will too. My position is that people must be taught how to
 JW> read the Bible, because the Bible is so old.

 I think there are many reasons, not only because it is so old, but also
 because people seemingly loose all sense of reality and common sense
 vanishes from the mileau.

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Date       03-12-92 22:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Williams
Subject      Trinity Explained

 JW> I am a Methodist by birth, but i haven't quite decided what to
 JW> call myself yet... thanks for the reply.  I'm going to stick
 JW> around here quite awhile longer, butting my nose into other
 JW> perople's arguments, so I look forward to discussing these
 JW> with you.  And let me now if i become incoherent again..

 Thanks for the reply.  I was raised Southern Baptist because my
 Methodist father sorta did what his wife told him.  <grin>    I met the
 Unification Church and joined 15 years ago when I was 25 and still had
 hair on my head.  I've fund raised with flowers, and peanuts, attended
 the Unification Theological Seminary and done a host of other things
 since that time.  I was matched to my wife (from Nebraska) by Rev. Moon
 in 1979 and was later married by him in Madison Square Garden in July
 1981 with 2,074 other couples.    We have 3 kids (4,5 & 7) and their
 mother left for Moscow yesterday to support a seminar that is taking
 place on the Black Sea in Yalta.  I don't have all the answers about our
 movement or teaching but I try.  As far as I know I'm the only "Moonie"
 who has stepped fingers into this conference.  I joined Open Bible about
 2 years ago and have written over 1 meg of messages, totaling over 5,000
 lines in the past year.

 Do you have access to an offline reader?  If the bbs you call offers the
 ability to extract, compress and download these messages, you can use an
 editor to read and quote and respond to them at your leisure.

 All messages are public and open to comment, correction or an Amen in
 some cases.

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Date       03-12-92 23:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Trinity Exposed

 CR> >  Ha ha ha,  you just won't let up.  If they aren't convienced
 CR> > by now,
 CR> >  they will never know the truth.
 CR>
 CR>
 CR> Well, then perhaps others that are listening can see the truth
 CR> and accept it.

 I have to ask: "Then what?"    Even if someone does realize that Jesus
 wasn't God what is the next step?  Do they know that he will come back
 born of a woman and parent sinless children?  Do they know that he
 arrived in the early 1900's  as the Jehovah Witnesses prophesied, and
 armageddon started in the 70's.  Can they discover that the marriage of
 the Lamb took place in 1960?  Can they find the Messiah, or is EVERYONE
 still gazing into heaven?   The 747 already landed he debarked and went
 on several major speaking tours trying to find faith in America as the
 Mormons said he would.

 NUM 14:11    And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people
 provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the
 signs which I have shewed among them?

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Date       03-12-92 23:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject     Trinity Exposed

 CR> >  Humility ?
 CR>
 CR> Are you saying that I don't have this?

 I suppose it could be perceived that way.  I do think you often pin
 folks down and fail to show compassion when it becomes evident that they
 realize you are right.  Maybe you see the same thing from me.  Us new
 kids on the block have to be tough to make it in this conference. It
 often tends to insight us when we know we are right.

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Date       03-13-92 10:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    ANYTHING

 JS> Once we have accepted Christ's atoning blood, we become
 JS> righteous in God's sight.  Not our own, of course, but in His.
 JS> Our sins have, in effect, been "covered", by His blood.  What
 JS> _really happens, is that God sees our sin, but just as soon as
 JS> He sees it, He forgets it:

 Maybe so but you can count on Satan to remind Him.  This "cover my sins
 with blood" idea seems to be working to Satan's advantage don't you
 think?   Looks like a idea that was created for people who want to feel
 good about themselves even when they know they should change.

 The reality is that no one can fulfill your portion of responsibility.
 It is up to you alone to become God-like.  We need Christ to lead the
 way, but we cannot expect him to carry us.  The failure of christianity
 is mainly due to believers dragging their feet rather than pushing
 Christ.  I don't think many believers know that Christ can be inspired
 by their support.  I never heard anyone praying for Jesus till I met
 Rev. Moon.

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Date       03-13-92 10:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bill Izzo
Subject    consider this

 May I humbly try to correct some thoughts I overheard....?

 BI> We live in a 4 dimensional world, length, width, height, and
 BI> time.  God definitely is outside the dimensions
 BI> of length, width and height.

 Have you consider the possibility that God created man in order to
 provide a vehicle to step into, and experience, these dimension He
 created.  Does God want to experience length, width, height and time? It
 is obvious that God created for some reason.  Most likely He created for
 the same reason man creates.  He wanted to experience joy.  Since joy
 and happiness cannot exist in isolation, God had to create someone to be
 the object of His heart.   Could that be a monkey?  Who can be the
 object of God's heart?  Seems that humans were created for that role.
 Would God want one human with whom to share His love, life and ideals,
 or would He want millions?  I suppose we can evaluate a family and try
 to find the answer.  Does a family with one child have the potential for
 higher love than a family with many children?  Can an only child say to
 other people who came from large families, "I experienced greater love
 from my parents than you did."

 BI> Is He not also outside the
 BI> dimension of time? Can it be, and mind you this is pure
 BI> conjecture, that once a person dies and enters the spiritual
 BI> world they also loose the dimensionality of time along with the
 BI> other 3 dimensions?

 When a human goes into the spiritual world, they simply lose their
 physical body much like you may take off an overcoat. Once the body is
 absent, there in no need for food and sleep.  Love becomes the source of
 nourishment.  But you will enter the spiritual wold on the same level
 you lived on in earth, in terms of your state of emotional, character,
 and spiritual maturity.  If you are very selfish, you will be on the
 same level with other such souls like yourself.  There is no quantum
 leap up to heaven or down to hell.  Believers in Christ do have an
 advantage in that they can go to a realm Jesus called paradise. There
 they are protected from Satan's accusation. But still they are on the
 same level as other believers.  Being a believer does not always make a
 person unselfish.

 Since man is fallen his spiritual senses are not functioning properly.
 Many people can't perceive the spiritual world in a way that they can
 distinguish the factors that are influencing their mood.  Many people
 don't think the spiritual world exists at all.  So it is obvious that
 when a person enters the spiritual world their ability to communicate
 with the people in the world from which they came is seriously dampened.

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Date       03-13-92 11:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    God's Children

 JS> TB>  I simply don't think any loving father would have their son
 JS> TB># marry an institution.  ESPECIALLY one that resembles a
 JS> modern church TB># congregation.
 JS> Then, I _TRULY_ thank the Lord, that He loves us so much more
 JS> than you apparently do!  Praise God!

 Are you trying to incite me or were you making a point to teach me
 something that I missed?

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Date       03-13-92 11:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dave Gentry
Subject     MESSIAH AND JEWS

 DG> Could we please use the SYSOP'S name and not SYSOP. Every Fido
 DG> sysop that...

 It is my fault.  I have changed my setup to try to prevent this.
 Usually I tell my users to enter messages to my name rather than sysop
 when they are in the fidonet network conferences.

 Sorry for the inconvenience.

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Date       03-13-92 11:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Messiah and Jews

 JS> Please get your facts straight.  Mormons _DO_ believe that Jesus
 JS> is (a) god.
 JS> They just don't believe that he is the same as the Father.  It
 JS> is therefore inaccurate to lump JW's and Mormons together in
 JS> this way.

 Looks like polytheism if you are correct.  Are you a representative of
 the Mormon faith?  How do you defend and justify belief in other gods?

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Date       03-13-92 11:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jeff Shirton
Subject    Messiah and Jews

 JS> "feminine" characteristics.  You are limiting God, here.

 I doubt I could limit God, but I do believe Gen 1:28.  Do you?

 JS> TB>  The only way that God could be fully manifested
 JS> TB># on earth is in the form of parents.

 JS> Of course, this view, while extra-Biblical, is also bordering on
 JS> polytheism.

 Glad to see you are aware of this possibility.  Since I don't want to
 make that error, I will say that True Parents are like the statue of the
 Emperor.  Although that statue is not the Emperor himself, if you deface
 it, you will be treated in the same way as if you harm the Emperor
 himself.

 MAR 3:29    But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath
 never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

 JS>  Do you believe that He is without sin?   TB>  Yes.
 JS> Impossible, unless He is God (Rom. 3:10, 23).  If He is without
 JS> sin but still only a man, then the Scriptures lie.  Please explain
 js> an alternate explanation.

 Let's look at Rom. 3:10

 ROM 3:10    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 Seems that St. Paul contradicted Moses, or whoever wrote Genesis:

 GEN 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into
 the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

 GEN 6:9      These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man
 [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

 Now, let's consider Rom.  3:23

 ROM 3:23    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 So you are saying that Jesus is not included in the "all" that St. Paul
 is talking about?
 Wonder why Jesus rebuked the people for saying he was good? :

 LUK 18:19   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is]
 good, save one, [that is], God.

 I can only conclude that you believe the Messiah is something strange
 and unusual.  Actually the Messiah is only an ordinary man.  It is the
 rest of the world that is strange and unusual.  Had man not fallen,
 everyone would be born sinless, and with sinless parents guiding them,
 they would have grown up to be perfect just as Jesus was perfect. The
 history of religion is nothing more that the record of God's attempt to
 make fallen man "normal."   The lives we have been living as well as the
 character and morality we have adopted is most ABNORMAL.

 JS> Doesn't conflict with Jesus being God, though.

 Wether or not you believe Jesus is God is not the real issue.  What is
 at stake is how can all people share the same relationship with God that
 Jesus enjoyed.  By making Jesus abnormal you are at the same time
 accepting the belief that everyone else must remain "normal" by Satan's
 standard.  I tell you that Satan loves it when fallen people accepts
 their situation and falls into the belief that we can do no better.  You
 can stay in the fallen "normal" world if you like.  But I am going to go
 to God and become "abnormal" ...like you view Jesus Christ.

 JOS 24:15 ...whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers
           served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods
           of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my
           house, we will serve the LORD.

 JS> Nice try.  Romans 3:10 and 3:23 tell us that _all_ humans are
 JS> sinners.

 And Gen. 7:1 says Noah was righteous.  Beware of Satan's attempts to
 keep you down on the farm.

 MAT 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
 exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
 case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 JS> They may go through a period of time without sin, but _none_ will
 JS> live their entire life without sinning.  Adam and Eve were
 JS> sinners.

 They were not born sinners.  They did not sin for a period of time
 before the fall.  If I buy into your theory then they too would be God.

 They clearly had the same potential to enter into the same relationship
 with God that the "Last Adam" enjoyed.

 JS> This means that either He is God, or the Scriptures lie.
 Why do you use the phrase "or the Scriptures lie" ?   It seems to
 connote some kind of Biblical authority in your ability to interpret
 scripture.  This display of "superiority" on your part seems to be an
 attempt to demonstrate the pride of bigotry.   Is that your intentions
 when you write?

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Date       03-13-92 15:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christianity

 WC>    I will agree that you have had a religious experience. The
 WC> ques- tion that needs answering is was it in accordance with
 WC> Scripture?

 I suppose I will have to confess that for me direct spiritual experience
 with the living God take presidency over unwritten conjunctures. <grin>

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Date       03-13-92 16:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        1/

 WC> Matthew 16:3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to
 WC> day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can
 WC> discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs
 WC> of the times?    Unfortunately you reference does not address
 WC> the question. It rather attempts to sidestep the issue and focus
 WC> attention in another direction.

 I said the marriage of the Lamb took place already, then I showed you
 proof that you do not know the time you are living in.   How much more
 connection to the issue of God's timetable could anyone expect?

 WC> You have still not presented a
 WC> single Scripture which refutes my position that the bride is not
 WC> a human woman at all.

 You take everything else in the Bible literally, why does it disturb
 you that I take this passage to mean what it says?  You obliviously have
 a hidden agenda that this passage does not harmonize with.

 WC>And the Bible predicted that there
 WC> would be false messiahs

 TB>If the messiah were really coming back from outer space there would
 TB> be no need for such a warning.

 WC>    It would appear that Jesus believe that there was indeed
 WC> reason to let us know the true manner in which He would return.

 You danced around the logic I presented.


 WC> TB>Have you head anyone, other that my small voice crying in the
 WC> TB>wilderness, speaking well of Rev. Moon.

 Not good enough.  Sin of omission is still crouching at your door.  If
 you master it you to will be accepted.

 WC>    Unfortunately the verdict of Scripture says that the
 WC> doctrines as espoused in the Divine Principles is not biblical
 WC> thought there are a few sprinkled here and there through the
 WC> book. Most of the stuff is in direct opposition to Scripture.

 To use your term: "horsefeathers."   The Divine Principle does not
 contradict scripture, only misinterpretations of it.

 TB>"Against"  means to disagree with.

 WC> 1266. diamerizo, dee-am-er-id'-zo; from G1223 and G3307; to
 WC> partition thoroughly (lit. in distribution, fig. in
 WC> dissension):--cloven, di- vide, part.
 WC>    The meaning of the word is a little stronger than you have
 WC> indi- cated. To partition thoroughly is a little more serious
 WC> than a disa- greement.

 You are right. God is dividing America.  Anyone that does not follow
 Rev. Moon's way of life will have no future.

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Date       03-13-92 16:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fundamentalist        3/

 WC> TB>However, that the second coming of Elijah took place through
 WC> John TB>the Baptist does not mean that Elijah, himself, was born
 WC> again as TB>John the Baptist.
 WC>    Well, you were the one that claimed that John the Baptist was
 WC> Elijah.

 No, Walter, You confused me with Jesus.  I know that is easy to do :-)

 Jesus sez:
 MAT 11:13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
 MAT 11:14   And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to
 come.

 WC> TB>Elijah was in the spirit world, helping John the Baptist, who
 WC> was TB>on earth, since John was born with the same mission (Lk
 WC> 1:17).    What scriptural evidence do you have that humans can
 WC> return to the earth as spirits and help anyone?

 Heb 11:40  And 12:1 ff

 WC> Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
 WC> after this the judgment:
 WC>    What do you do with this passage?

 The same that anyone preparing for a big test might do...  I do my
 homework and : 2TI 2:15    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a
 workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of
 truth.


 WC> TB>So, although the mission was the same, the person was
 WC> different.
 WC>    A much more sensible and rational explanation. Now if the two
 WC> were different persons then John the Baptist could not have been
 WC> Elijah.

 But Jesus clearly said he was Elijah.  Jesus did not mean he was the man
 Elijah who lived long ago, he was saying he had the mission of Elijah.

 I'm trying to figure out why you are having difficulty in understanding
 this concept.  We have a president of the United States,  He is not the
 first president, nor the one who came before him, but he is the
 precedent.   John the Baptist had the mission of Elijah.  That's why
 Jesus called him Elijah.  So where was the man Elijah?  He was in the
 spiritual world and from there he was working with Jesus and John to
 support God's victory over evil.

 WC> TB>Through this lesson learned from the second coming of Elijah,
 WC> we TB>can understand that the Second Coming might possible take
 WC> place by TB>the Lord's being born on earth.
 WC>    And interesting jump in logic which the Scriptures absolutely
 WC> refutes. Jesus will not arrive as a baby at His Second Advent.

 Oh, but he will.  It will not be the same Jesus, it will be the third
 Adam... another member of the "Christ" family.   God can have as many
 sons as He wants.  And in fact God had another one in January of 1920. I
 hope you can find out who he is.  He should be about 72 now.  Not too
 many years remaining to work directly, shoulder to shoulder with him.
 You better find out who he is if you want to have an experience that
 will NEVER be possible in the remaining ETERNAL history of the world.
 Miss this one opportunity and it will NEVER come again.  Talking about
 lucky, do you realize if you are on earth at the time of the messiah and
 you find him, that is more luck than winning the whole world?

 Walter, I'm a very lucky person and I am willing to share my blessing
 with you.  Take my advice and MAKE God tell you what you should do.

 WC> He will return to the earth in like manner as He ascended. That
 WC> is what God said. You say differently.

 Ok, ok, after a year you have worn me down. You are right.  He will come
 from the clouds, in a 747, from the east !  I'm convinced you are right!

 WC>    His appearance will be such at all will recognize Him and
 WC> know who He is.

 Horsefeathers.  Haven't you read your users manual yet?  Turn to page:

 MAR 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this
 generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign
 be given unto this generation.


 MAT 24:38   For as in the days that were before the flood they were
 eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that
 Noe entered into the ark, MAT 24:39   And knew not until the flood came,
 and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 WC>    You missed it as bad as you have claimed the Jews missed it.
 WC> The prophecy of Daniel concerned the Second Advent. This is
 WC> clearly shown by the various Scripture which I have quoted to
 WC> you on the subject. There will be absolutely no doubt about the
 WC> manner of His return. It will happen exactly as Scripture say.
 WC> The prophecy given in Micah 5:2 concerned His First Advent. He
 WC> came exactly as Micah said He would. He will also come the
 WC> Second Time exactly as Daniel said.    So where do you see a
 WC> contradiction?

 The contradiction in in your interpretation.  These were not prophecies
 of two comings of Christ.  Christianity invented this and read it into
 their interpretation of scripture to comfort their conscious and pains
 of doing the will of Satan.   The two prophecies were made because the
 chosen people had the possibility of fulfilling or failing their portion
 of responsibility.

 MAT 11:13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


 Clearly Jesus taught that all the prophecies in in the Old Testament
 concluded with John the Baptist.  It is not possible that there was any
 prophecy in in the Old Testament about the second coming of Christ.

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Date       03-13-92 16:54:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    last days             1/

 WC>    And so you want us to believe that Adam was responsible for
 WC> Cain's sin. That would mean that Adam forced Cain to kill Abel.

 Not necessarily but check your manual:  1CO 15:22   For as in Adam all
 die...

 WC> Such a position is not biblical. Neither have you demonstrated
 WC> any relation- ship between the sin of Adam and the sin of Cain
 WC> beyond the fact that sin entered into the world through Adam.

 Such a minor thing to consider, let's just overlook Adam's little
 boyhood prank.

 WC> TB>Do you think that parents are not responsible for the actions
 WC> of TB>their children?  1CO 15:22   For as in Adam all die
 WC>    Parents are only responsible for their children when they are
 WC> young and in their care and protection. When they become adults
 WC> they are on their own.

 Adam and Eve were very young when Lucifer seduced Eve and taught her
 about sexual love.  I think the Police call such individuals "chicken
 hawks."   Lucifer was a pettifile.  And after he finished with Eve here
 eyes were opened and she knew good from evil.  She knew that Adam was
 supposed to be her husband, but she did not repent, she went and taught
 him about sexual love.  This infected him with the same shame and guilt
 she wanted to rid herself from.

 WC> TB>Consider this one more time:
 WC> TB>JOH 8:41    Ye do the deeds of your father...
 WC> TB>JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts
 WC> of TB>your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the
 WC> beginning,    I find it interesting that you frequently quote
 WC> this passage to demonstrate that there are some who are not
 WC> God's children yet turn around and in the next breath indicate
 WC> that ALL are God's children.

 I thought you could keep up.  Sometimes I am talking about the current
 reality and sometimes I'm talking about man's destiny.  I'll try to be
 a more careful teacher.


 WC>    I have taken note of the passages concerning the bridegroom
 WC> in the New Testament. That is why I know that the marriage
 WC> supper of the Lamb has yet to occur.

 MAT 12:39   MAT 16:4   MAR 8:12  LUK 11:29

 WC> It is also why I know that
 WC> it will not be to a human woman.

 Do you want her name?  What more can I do to convince you that this has
 taken place already.  The marriage of the Lamb took place in 1960
 between the 3rd Adam and a real living, breathing woman.  They now have
 had 13 children.   What a wonderful time we are living in!

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Date       03-13-92 17:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    last days             2/

 TB>So tell us misguided souls how Christ can make all things new if
 TB>he doesn't restore the True Family of God...  the husband wife
 TB>relationship himself, and the parent child relationship. How can
 TB>Christ make all things new if he doesn't parent sinless children.

 WC> That does not occur until after....

 It is "after" now.  You timing is just a little off.

 WC> TB>You can't tell me you would really be disappointed if he is
 WC> here TB>now.

 WC>    If He were here now in the sense you have said then the earth
 WC> would have just concluded seven years of turmoil in which a
 WC> major percentage would have been killed and civilization would
 WC> be destroyed.

 Just let me remind you that during your lifetime you have seen 2 World
 Wars,  the Korean War, Vietnam, and Communist take over 1/3 of the world
 through the most violent bloodshed history has recorded.

 TB>Do you really want to abandon that hope if
 WC> Christ returns born of TB>a woman?
 WC>    There is no hope in that direction to abandon. Jesus was born
 WC> of a woman. He is not presently dead. He remains the Messiah and
 WC> the only Messiah that will ever be so long as He lives--which is
 WC> forever.

 He certainly has his place as God's third child but it is possible for
 God to have another child and Jesus will support the youngest member of
 the "Christ" family.   Will You?

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Date       03-13-92 17:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Sin

 WC>    You are on the correct track. Those sins which are covered by
 WC> the blood of Jesus no longer exist. They are gone as though they
 WC> were never committed.

 I don't believe you.  If someone murdered your child then repented,
 would the blood of Jesus bring your child back to life?

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Date       03-13-92 18:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Nature of God

 AS> Yes, he cares for us, but only as a means of vicariously
 AS> experiencing the suffering (and evolution therefrom) which man
 AS> experiences.

 My personal experience makes it hard to believe you.  God is much
 more involved than evolved people are aware.

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Date       03-14-92 08:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bill Ehmling
Subject     D&D

 BE> Is this the same Rev. Moon that claims that his current wife
 BE> (his third) is THE Holy Spirit?

 You could jump to that conclusion.   Rev.  Moon teaches that the if the
 bride of Christ matures she will be the physical incarnation of the Holy
 Spirit.   I hope that the true mother of mankind has come.  From my
 personal knowledge of Hak Ja Han Moon, I will have to confess that I do
 believe she has taken this responsibility and fulfilled the mission.

 I know it may be difficult to believe that His first wife did not
 fulfill this mission.  But consider that no woman has ever restored
 Eve's position since she fell.  Someone must do it someday.  Anyone who
 has gone through a divorce will understand how painful it was for Rev.
 Moon when she left him.  It is not uncommon to central religious men to
 have problems in finding a strong enough woman to follow them while they
 did the will of God.   Noah had a wife that ridiculed him as he built a
 boat (that saved the human race) on a mountain top.  Jacob had to marry
 Leah before his uncle would allow him to marry Rachel.

 The Holy Spirit stands in the mother position when a christian is reborn
 through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  Since birth implies parents, it
 seems to me that rebirth also would need spiritual parents... including
 a mother.

 Have you met Mrs. Moon?

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Date       03-14-92 09:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    D&D

 TB> Maybe so,  but still we have to talk about what must be done.

 SH> <yawn>  You continually advocate that people "pray with
 SH> tears" AS YOU  DO.

 When did I say I prayed with tears?   On 4 or 5 occasions I did but that
 was over a period of 15 years.   I may have prayed with tears on an
 average of once ever 3 years since I was 25 years old.  I not only give
 advice for the wonderful people of this conference, but also for myself.
 I need to deepen my heart through my prayer life. That means tears are
 necessary.

 SH>  And UNLESS they do, they cannot know God's
 SH>"true"revelation for man, or truly know that Moon is the "messiah."

 I have found it is a pattern that shallow people, who never take
 anything seriously, aren't attracted to God...  And God doesn't waste
 His time telling them what He needs either.  If you want to move the
 heart of God and have a deep experience, you have to pray with tears.

 Sh> 1)  Because you have "prayed with tears," and others
 SH> have not, this  is clearly an indication on your part that you
 SH> feel that you have  some sort of inside track to God.

 I met God when I prayed with tears.  I think it will work for you too.

 SH> AT the very least, it is showing  that you feel that you are
 SH> spiritually superior in some way.  The  scriptures never command
 SH> "pray* with tears," (* to indicate any form  of the verb).

 No, that's what you perceived.  I was simply sharing my knowledge with
 you.  It was your conclusion that I was spiritually superior.  If you
 went to the doctor and he told you to quit smoking or go on a diet,
 would you accuse him of being superior to you?  You don't have to take
 his advice, but like my advice, you can try it and find out for yourself
 if it will work to your benifit.  Do you question my suggestion that
 praying with tears may NOT be good for you?

 SH>You use this phrase as a club.  2)  What must be done is for people
 SH> to search the scriptures, pray,  and get away from anti-christs
 SH> such as Moon.

 If this was 2,000 years ago you would have said EXACTLY the same thing
 to me except your last word would not be "Moon", rather it would have
 been "Jesus."   Everyone was warnned to stay away from that durnkard,
 glutton and friend of the tax collector and the prostitute.

 TB> You don't pray. It is impossible for a person who leads a life of
 TB> prayer to see no value in Rev. Moon's advice.

 SH> Here's that spiritual club again.

 No it is the doctor's advice to a very sick patient.  You just don't
 want to admit you are a sinner.   But you do need salvation.  And you
 will not find salvation unless you take your medicine.  Prayer is the
 medicine.  And it is most powerful when mixed with tears.

 TB> I might be wrong and you might be wrong.  If you think I'm praying
 to TB> Rev. Moon then I can settle this question by letting you know
 that you TB> are wrong.  I pray to God, and so does Rev. Moon.

 SH> You pray to a god that is not the same God that
 SH> is revealed in the  scriptures.  You call him "god," but that
 SH> does not make it so.  In  doing so, you invalidate parts of the
 SH> Bible that don't fit yours, or  Moon's philosophy.

 Jesus did not come and simply read the Old Testament to the people.  Why
 do you think Christ, at the second coming, should just read the New
 Testament to you?  The difference between Judaism and Christianity is
 like a quantum leap.  It is like a high school diploma compared to a
 master's degree. Do you really believe the teaching of the second coming
 of Christ ( Godism ) will be a simple continuation of Christianity? It
 will be greater than a kindergarten education is from a Phd degree. I
 have to wonder how much "real" thinking you have done about these kinds
 of things.

 TB> If you are are interested in knowing how to reach the heart of God
 TB> in prayer, I can send you a book of some of Rev. Moon's prayers.

 SH> No thanks.  I have God's word on how to reach Him.  I take advice
 SH> from the real thing.

 Ok.  Just remember you can NEVER accuse me for not trying. At least I'm
 now free from you coming to me after we die and go into the spiritual
 world and then complaining to me that I did not do my job.

 However you may complain about that ragged, run on, sentence I just
 wrote. <grin>

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Date       03-14-92 09:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    HOLY SPIRIT

 TB> Did you know that is the reason the Jewish folk couldn't accept the
 TB> reality that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the Messiah?

 SH> There are other reasons also.  But to make your point
 SH> totally  salient, you must claim that ALL Jewish folk rejected
 SH> Christ as the  Messiah.  Are you saying that this is the case?

 There were a few people who believed the Jesus was the messiah. But with
 the overwhelming spirit of negativity that permeate the situation,
 they were all but helpless.  Even when Jesus asked 3 of his most trusted
 men to pray with him they did not take him serious and they fell asleep.
 How could a handful of such people be significant?

 TB> I surely feel Christ's crucifixion was a major mistake.

 SH>  Too bad that God disagrees with you.

 You think God wanted to sent His only begotten son to die at the hands
 of people who were possessed by Satan?  You seem to indicate that it was
 no sacrifice for God.  You should reconsider your position.

 JOH 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

 TB> What will you do when Jesus Christ returns? Without a doubt you will
 TB> answer, "I will receive him! Welcome him!  Unite with him! Follow
 TB> him!" Will you crucify him?  Surely your answer must be, "NO!"

 SH> I won't be here.

 Oh but you are here.  Now is the hour.

 SH>  Therefore, Christ's crucifixion was God's plan.

 So what is the point of God waiting so long and preparing a chosen
 people to expect the messiah to come?  All that preparation along with
 the revelations God gave to people at Jesus' birth and even telling John
 the Baptist that Jesus was His son could have backfired.   If you want
 to get someone killed the last thing you would do is tell the executors
 that this is a very important person who will bring peace to the world:

 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
 government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
 Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The
 Prince of Peace.

 SH>  Are you saying that God is not in control of the situation??
 SH> Are you  saying that it was not part of God's plan that Christ
 SH> was  sacrificed??

 Whewwww,   Finally I'm getting through to you.  I though you would never
 catch on.  That is EXACTLY what I'm saying !  God did not originally
 plan for His son to be sacrificed.  God did everything He could to
 insure the chosen people would find and follow His son.  God fulfilled
 His portion of responsibility.  Faith in God is man's portion of
 responsibility. God is NOT in control of YOUR portion of responsibility.
 The crucifixion of Christ was a secondary course that had to be taken
 when the chosen people FAILED to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

 SH>  What you, and Moon, believe are simply not what God says.

 No, what you have been taught, the way you have been taught to interpret
 the scripture is the problem God is having to deal with.

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Date       03-14-92 10:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Savage
Subject      SATAN

 RS>   I don't deny that there are many "satans" in the word...Those
 RS> who are "warring against the Law of God."  But there is no One
 RS> supernatural deified "Satan".  Man is the guilty party and only
 RS> he can be blamed for the sole guilt of his "warring
 RS> against the Law of God."  Anything less is trying to blame
 RS> someone else for man's guilt.

 I agree with your conclusion about who is responsible, but do you find
 it that difficult to believe that evil has an origin?  If so who taught
 man to sin?   Could that being be most highly developed in terms of
 evil?  Could that being still have influence and power in this world?
 Could that being have an "agenda" to carry out?

 Obviously the creator of evil had a purpose, goal and the will to carry
 out his "agenda."   He had the means to make his will a reality in the
 lives of humankind.

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Date       03-14-92 10:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Savage
Subject      SATAN

 TB>I cannot agree more that the enemy is US.  But how did we get in this
 TB>situation?

 RS>   It has always been man.

 But everything God created was called "good."   So man did not start out
 with any contradiction.

 RS> Ever hear of the garden of Eden and
 RS> Adam and Eve's "SIN" of eating the "apple"?   That is where we
 RS> inherited our sin-sick hearts.

 I heard about eating a fruit, but it was not apple!  They were fooling
 around with conjugal love before they were mature. The fall of man was
 not the apple in the tree, it was the "pair" on the ground.

 RS>   I just opened up a can of worms because the "serpent" tempted
 RS> Eve.  Well who was the "serpent"?  Gen 3:1 says that the serpent
 RS> was more subtil than any beast of the field.  And the serpent
 RS> spoke to the women, Eve.  No can a literal snake
 RS> speak?  Of course not.  Then we must be talking symbolically
 RS> here and the term "serpent" is descriptive of the kind of person
 RS> who tempted Eve was.   Christ called the Pharisees, serpents.

 REV 12:9    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
 the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
 into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 The serpent was a spiritual being. Snakes don't talk or have knowledge
 of God's commandments to man.  They don't have the ability to make a
 plan or the will to carry out a plan if they had one.

 RS> It was a descriptive word describingthe type of person they
 RS> were.  It did not mean that they were literal serpents.

 Right.  Note that John the Baptist called fallen "brood of vipers"
 indicating that fallen man was the offspring of a snake. The origin and
 motivation for the birth of fallen man came from a fallen angel.  There
 is NO fruit that anyone would eat at the cost of their lives, but people
 do value love more than life.

 JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your
 father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
 in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie,
 he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


 RS>   And NOWHERE in the Bible, when you define the terms used, will
 RS> you find the Bible calling this serpent in the Garden,
 RS> "Satan/Devil".  It is impossible
 RS> because the very meaning of the words "satan" and "devil" mean
 RS> something totally different than a supernatural boogie man.

 REV 12:9    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
 the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
 into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 RS>  The Bible uses various animal terms to describe
 RS> the characteristof certain people...Like lions, sheep, dogs,
 RS> etc...  Why do we make an exceptionfor the "serpent" in the
 RS> garden?


 RS>  "Satan" is us.  It is our "fleshly natures" that are in
 RS> "Opposition to the Law of God".  "Satan" isn't an external
 RS> diefied being who is tempting us.  It is our evil and "fallen"
 RS> hearts that cause us to sin.

 Yes, But isn't that the command center for Satan's headquarters?
 You are saying that General Schwartzcoff invaded Kuwait and President
 Bush did not give the command.   Where are the commands coming from that
 our hearts follow? ( forgive my spelling )

 RS>   "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST
 RS> (not by a fallen angel) and enticed.  Then when lust hath
 RS> concieved, it bringeth forth sin..."  (James 1:14-15)

 But where did our heart learn of lust?

 JOH 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me

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Date       03-14-92 11:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Why Not

 AS> TB> Can we really have a world that was created without a
 AS> purpose? Why not?
 AS>
 AS> TB> For what purpose do you create?  Do you hope to receive some
 AS> TB> stimulation, joy, or happiness from your effort?
 AS> Why does a salt crystal form in a puddle of evaporating
 AS> salt-water?  Where is the stimulation, joy, and happiness?  Yet
 AS> it forms, nevertheless.

 I had a teacher once tell me that electrons were attracted to protons.
 The electron - proton stimulation must fulfill some basic form of joy.

 TB> Why are you like
 AS> TB> that?  Why is everyone seeking happiness?  Where did we get
 AS> such a TB> nature that inspires us seek happiness?

 AS> Happiness and pleasure result from a release of tension or
 AS> stress.  Happiness
 AS> and pleasure enticed us to do the things we had to do to survive
 AS> (eat, have sex, kill prey, build shelter (sense of
 AS> accomplishment), maintain families (protect kin),
 AS> etc.) before we (that is, our animal ancestors) had enough
 AS> brains to decide to do those things for logical reasons.

 Yes, but once a fat man eats a hearty dinner and sits by the warm fire,
 he still seeks to satisfy his spiritual side through philosophy and
 religion.  If we only consider the external satisfaction and needs then
 their is no reason we would be talking.  I can't fulfill any of my
 physical needs by reading and typing messages about philosophical and
 religious topics.   ...yet we both seek truth, beauty and goodness.

 AS> TB> Did you give this nature to yourself?

 AS> Biology did it.

 That would mean that "biology" is your creator.   Jw's aren't going to
 like it because you don's know that God's name is Jehovah. <grin>

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Date       03-14-92 11:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Alan Smith
Subject    Why Not

 AS> But God was presumably around before there ever was a parent.

 God was the first parent.

 AS> If a parent suffers as a result of the child
 AS> suffering, however, that parent would be more likely to relieve
 AS> the child's suffering because this is what he would
 AS> have to do to relieve his own suffering.

 Very good point.  Could that be why God is trying to help man resolve
 the problem of sin and thus relieve His own suffering?

 AS> He isn't doing it to
 AS> help the child; he's doing it for his own sake.

 I would say both.  I do have a desire to resolve my children's suffering
 that is not just to relieve me of my own agony of seeing them suffer.

 >GT> Again you are anthropomorphizing God.

 TB> Could be.  But if we give human attributes to God we still have to
 ask TB> where God got them from to give to us.

 AS> I think God never had them, but may be acquiring them now
 AS> through us.

 Exactly what Rev. Moon is teaching.  Man's perfection is also God's
 perfection.  That concept "freaks out" many christians.  If any read
 this you just watch their response.

 AS> Therefore, whatever
 AS> occurred in the gene pool which contributed to the formation of
 AS> a group or tribe (a sense of needing to be with others, a sense
 AS> of loneliness when apart), was kept because those
 AS> genes more likely survived while others didn't.

 I don't believe that loneliness is genetical.

 TB> Can God evolve?   Was God once a "baby" god?

 AS> I believe he (it) is evolving.  He is expanding into new areas.

 I will conditionally accept your position.  Usually when people say that
 God is evolving they are trying to hint at the idea that God came into
 existence.

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Date       03-14-92 11:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    Zach

 TB> That kind of evaluation would dismiss Jesus Christ himself. Did
 Jesus TB> come with a new message? Did the people think it was
 contradicting the TB> Law of Moses?

 SH>  Yes, people thought that He was contradicting the scriptures.
 SH> But He  was not.  The same cannot be said of Moon.

 Why?  Just like you are free to say whatever you want about Rev. Moon, I
 am too.  And I tell you that people who say Rev. Moon is contradiction
 scripture are incorrect.  They don't know Rev. Moon NOR do they know how
 to interpret scripture from God's point of view.

 SH>  I am not sure that Jesus came with any new message other than
 SH> what  God had been saying all along: repent, and return to God.

 Most of Jesus' teaching were new.  Look for "new doctrine" in the
 following scripture:

 JOH 13:34   A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
 as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 MAR 1:27    And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned
 among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is]
 this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and
 they do obey him.

 ACS 17:19   And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying,
 May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]?

 SH>  I have never seen a picture of Moon, so this is totally
 SH> irrelevant.  I can discern from his actions, and the actions of
 SH> his follows, that  he is an antichrist:

 SH>       For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not
 SH>       confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

 As you correctly pointed out, the antichrist does NOT confess Jesus
 Christ came in the flesh.  I tell you that not only Jesus Christ came in
 the flesh, but ALSO the second coming of Christ will be in the flesh.
 It would appear that your position that Christ will return through the
 ozone hole is closer to the definition of what an antichrist is.

 What actions have I, or any of Rev. Moons followers, done to cause you
 to think he is not a man of God?  What do you think a man of God is
 like?

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Date       03-14-92 12:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Armageddon

 TB>I have to inform you that you are making a big mistake. Armaged-
 TB>don began like the Watchtower predicted.

 WC>    You are certainly free to believe such a thing. However,
 WC> neither you nor the WTBTS has ever been able to produce any
 WC> evidence that Armageddon has already began. In order for it to
 WC> be in progress at the present time it would have to have started
 WC> in 1986. Had it started earlier than this it would be over now
 WC> and Jesus would have set up His Millennial Kingdom. This has not
 WC> happened.

 It has.  Armageddon began Sep. 18 1976 (Chairman Mao was burried that
 day and Rev. Moon delivered a historical speech at Madison Square Garden
 - do you want a copy of that historical speech? ("The New Future of
 Christianity"))  and the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah has began in
 1991.  That was the year Rev. Moon ended the 40 year indemnity condition
 for the failure of christianity. The period in the wilderness has ended.
 From this point on people will realize that his way is the ONLY way.

 WC> Neither has the majority of the earth's population
 WC> been killed in war, famine, or disease during the past 7 years.

 Do you have any idea how many people have lost their lives as the result
 of Communism.  Do you have any idea how many people will loose their
 lives as a result of aids?   You don't know the time you are living in.
 The time you are waiting on is NOW!

 TB> And christianity is/has failed! The mission of christianity was to
 TB>support Christ but like the chosen Israelite people 2,000 years
 TB>ago they did not recognize his coming.


 WC>    You again demonstrate a disregard for the scriptural
 WC> definition of a believer (Christian). Christianity has not
 WC> failed. Believers are doing exactly what they were instructed to
 WC> do. The reason that you are having problems with this is that
 WC> you do not know what the instructions are. Nor are you in a
 WC> position to perceive them.

 You can only guess what position I am in.  I full understand Jesus'
 words:

 LUK 18:8 ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find
 faith on the earth?

 Christianity failed to support Rev. Moon between 1945 and 1951 so he had
 to pay 40 years of indemnity and build another foundation EXACTLY like
 Jesus went to the wilderness and fasted for 40 days and restarted his
 ministry with a simple fisherman in the place of the failed John the
 Baptist.  That is what happened even thought you can't understand it.

 WC> If you were to admit the biblical
 WC> definition of a believer you would be placed in a position of
 WC> being forced to renounce your present beliefs. This you are
 WC> unwilling to do at the present time.

 One is not supposed to renounce the true.

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Date       03-14-92 13:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus                 1/

 WC>    God is a Spirit--without flesh and blood and invisible to
 WC> man. In order to make Himself visible to man and in order to
 WC> shed innocent blood for our sins, He had to put on flesh.

 So you are contradicting John 3:16.   God sent HIS son.  He did not come
 Himself to the cross.  Why is that difficult to comprehend?  Only
 because you have already decided the issue in your own mind you cannot
 see the truth.

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Date       03-14-92 13:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus                 1/

 WC>    The mystery of God in flesh was a great stumbling block to
 WC> the Jews. They never could understand how Jesus, being a man,
 WC> could also be God (John 10:33). Because He claimed to be God
 WC> they rejected Him and sought to kill Him (John 5:18); 10:33).

 No one thought Jesus was God till this idea was invented centuries after
 Jesus had been crucified.  In fact you can read that the people accused
 Jesus NOT for claiming to "BE" God but for making himself "EQUAL" with
 God.  Here it is in scripture... plain as day:

 JOH 5:18    Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he
 not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father,
 making himself equal with God.
                ^^^^^

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Date       03-14-92 13:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus                 2/

 WC> The mystery of Jesus Christ has
 WC> been kept secret since the world began, but was revealed in the
 WC> New Testa- ment age (Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). A
 WC> mystery in the New Testament is simply a plan of God that was
 WC> not understood in the Old Testament but which HAS been make
 WC> known to us.

 And now that you finally notice a difference in between the Old
 Testament and the New Testament, how can you expect the Messiah to come
 with the New Testament just warmed over.  The same kind of noticeable
 difference you have reported between the Old and New Testament will be
 called extra-biblical by the people of the New Testament when they are
 exposed to the Completed Testament ( Divine Principle ).

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Date       03-14-92 13:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus                 2/

 TB>I tell you plainly and clearly and truthfully God can only dwell
 TB>fully in a Marriage.

 WC>    This is extra-biblical. There is no Scripture which says or
 WC> teaches such a concept.

 That is because it came from the Divine Principle, the Completed
 Testament.  Just as you pointed out that many of the concepts of the New
 Testament were not found in the Old Testament, I don't understand why
 you can't figure out the Completed Testament will also have new
 concepts.

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Date       03-14-92 13:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jesus                 3/

 WC> TB>That marriage is the hope of humanity, and blessed will be
 WC> those TB>who attend that marriage.
 WC>    Believers will be more than just spectators. They will be an
 WC> intimate part. Believers are the body of Christ--His bride.

 Hey !   That's right.   We too can attend the marriage with our spouse
 and get the long awaited blessing of marriage from God through the
 Messiah.  Do you realize that means our children will be directly
 connected to the Messiah's lineage.    And his lineage is from God!
 There is no greater blessing that anyone could give to their children,
 and their grand children and entire lineage to come.

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Date       03-14-92 13:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiah

 WC> TB>No need to wait any longer.  HE Came !
 WC>    You used past tense. This is correct. He came about 2000
 WC> years ago. He will come again at some future date in clouds and
 WC> great power and glory.

 Yes, he arrived in a 747 from the East!  I think 1971 was his first
 visit.

 WC>    We do have some instruction in Scripture on the subject. When
 WC> He returns He will put and end to war. There will be universal
 WC> peace.

 I went to Russia and taught about God to 3,000+ college students.  Who
 made that possible?

 WC> He will return at the end of 7 years of unprecedented
 WC> political turmoil which sees the greater majority of the earth's
 WC> population destroyed. Since none of these things have occurred
 WC> then Jesus has not come back.

 He came and anointed Rev. Sun Myung Moon with the mission of
 establishing Godism on earth.  It is now up to us to either follow and
 quickly establish the Kingdom of God on earth or sulk and suffer.

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Date       03-14-92 13:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiahs

 WC> WC>    In what way do you think my doctrine places all the
 WC> WC> responsibility-  on God? I have stated over and over that
 WC> God WC> will hold man respon- sible for his actions and judge
 WC> him WC> accordingly.
 WC> TB>Why then don't you establish the kingdom of God on earth so
 WC> Jesus TB>can retire when he comes back?
 WC>    That is a job which only Jesus as God can accomplish. This He
 WC> will do when He returns the second time.

 You began by asking me in what way I think your doctrine places all the
 responsibility on God.  Just look what you then wrote:

 " WC> That is a job which only Jesus as God can accomplish. This He
 WC> will do when He returns the second time."

 You clearly are waiting on Jesus do come back and fulfill your
 responsibility.

 WC> TB>We can then have two holidays:  Jesus' birthday, and the day
 WC> he TB>gets his gold watch and leaves to go fishing.
 WC>    No one knows at the present time when Jesus was born. Since
 WC> He invented time He does not need a watch. Since He created the
 WC> fish He does not need to go fishing. They come to Him at His
 WC> command.

 Well, Christ will go fishing and catch many fish, but his purpose will
 be to bring peace on earth by laying a foundation to feed the starving
 people and solve the hunger problems of the world.  Did you know Rev.
 Moon has invested a great majority of his time and energy in fishing to
 solve the problem of world hunger?  I tell you this man thinks like God.

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Date       03-14-92 13:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moon                  1/

 WC>    So whenever the Bible speaks of clouds it means purified
 WC> people of faith.

 Of course not EVERY TIME!  Just like the Bible speaks of death sometimes
 meaning physical death and at other times meaning spiritual death.  The
 Bible often speaks about literal sheep but was Jesus really saying you
 were a sheep in these scriptures? :

 JOH 10:15   As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I
 lay dow my life for the sheep. JOH 10:16   And other sheep I have, which
 are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my
 voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. JOH 10:26   But
 ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. JOH
 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 WC>    According to your interpretation the clouds must represent
 WC> people. Therefore the people were raining.

 When waters represent fallen people, clouds can also mean resurrected
 people:

 REV 17:15   And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where
 the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and
 tongues.

 Do you think a whore was seated on righteous people?  ...or fallen
 people?

 WC> Jesus went up in literal clouds. Scripture says that
 WC> He will return in like manner. Therefore He will return in the
 WC> clouds in the same manner He ascended.

 So is Elijah coming back the same way he left?:

 2KI 2:11    And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
 that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire,
 and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
 heaven.

 How did Jesus say Elijah returned?  :

 MAT 17:12   But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they
 knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise
 shall also the Son of man suffer of them. MAT 17:13   Then the disciples
 understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

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Date       03-14-92 13:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Moon                  2/

 WC>    Why do you insist that we must retain our corruptible bodies
 WC> of flesh when the Scripture clearly tell us that our new bodies
 WC> will be incorruptible, i.e. immortal?

 Did you forget who you are writing to?  I NEVER took that position!
 Jesus was not resurrected in the same corruptible body he lived in while
 on earth.  We will not remain in our corruptible bodies for more than a
 few decades.  While our physical body is growing we are also developing
 an eternal spiritual body that will live in the spiritual world when we
 die.  I'll have to re post chapter 1 for you.

 TB> Please don't tell me you really think you may float away to some
 TB> mystical place.

 WC> I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
 WC> heaven with a shout...

 WC>    That is what the Scripture say. However, it does not imply
 WC> that people will be floating. It will be a very rapid event.

 So you are expecting to take off more like a rocket than a gentle
 floating?  You can't believe that.  When Jesus says "Our Father who art
 in Heaven"  that doesn't mean that God lives in the clouds.

 NO,  the dwelling of God is among men.

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Date       03-14-92 14:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Religion

 WC> WC>    Which Christians did this? Your words certainly give
 WC> every WC> indi- cation that you do not know what a true
 WC> Christian is. TB>That's an understatement !  Where can I go to
 WC> find one?    Are you really serious about finding on? If so I
 WC> can certainly give you an address and a time.

 Well, I rather you give them my address and tell them where to send the
 check donation for God's work.  We need financial help for the seminars
 we are holding in the Commonwealth.

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Date       03-14-92 18:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Keith Suggs
Subject    JWs and Moonies

 KS> By the way, how closely do the JWs and the Moonies agree that
 KS> Reverend Moon is Christ (and just how did he get in Judge
 KS> Rutherford's closet anyway?)?

 Only Moonies know who Rev. Moon is.  Jw's just happen to have gotten the
 revelation that Christ was going to return in the early 1900's.  But
 they did not recognize him when he grew up and started his public
 ministry.   Actually the only group of people who have understood Rev.
 Moon's mission are a group of Moslems.  Many Moslem leaders have
 attended a 40 day workshop and are prepared to attend the next blessing
 (marriage) [possibly the last too] that Rev. Moon will perform in August
 of this year.

 I have only one suggestion for my friends... get that blessing.  It is
 much more valuable than the whole world.

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Date       03-14-92 18:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steven Headley
Subject    Zach

 SH>       God        7        Moon        0

 JOH 15:19   If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but
 because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
 therefore the world hateth you.

 JOH 16:3    And these things will they do unto you, because they have
 not known the Father, nor me.

 SH> When the suppossed "truth" that you are espousing is contrary to
 SH> what the scriptures teach me, Terry, I will stick with what God
 SH> says.  In a few years, Moon will be dead, and his followers will
 SH> be wondering what to do next.  Maybe then they will choose to
 SH> come back to God.  He will still be there, waiting foryou.

 MAT 18:3    And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and
 become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of
 heaven.

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